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Mobuck

Hawkeye
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Messages
7,367
Location
missouri
You might say I'm a student of terminal ballistics--I've been studying bullet performance for 1/2 century. There are so many variables involved with shooting game that any statement can/will be refuted.
Simply using foot pounds of energy isn't sufficient to prove a bullet's capabilities. Bullet construction makes a HUGE difference and can 'bump up' a smaller caliber with limited 'on paper energy' to another level. I no longer give much credence to those 'on paper energy' figures while placing more importance on just how a bullet performs on game.
This bullet performance will be a factor in how kmoore's rolling target will be affected. A quicker expanding bullet the delivers it's energy in a quick wallop will create a different movement pattern than a slower expanding but deeper penetrating bullet that bores it's way through the medium.
I could go on and on but will spare all of you the boring commentary.
 

GunnyGene

Hawkeye
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
6,804
Location
Monroe County, MS
You might say I'm a student of terminal ballistics--I've been studying bullet performance for 1/2 century. There are so many variables involved with shooting game that any statement can/will be refuted.
Simply using foot pounds of energy isn't sufficient to prove a bullet's capabilities. Bullet construction makes a HUGE difference and can 'bump up' a smaller caliber with limited 'on paper energy' to another level. I no longer give much credence to those 'on paper energy' figures while placing more importance on just how a bullet performs on game.
This bullet performance will be a factor in how kmoore's rolling target will be affected. A quicker expanding bullet the delivers it's energy in a quick wallop will create a different movement pattern than a slower expanding but deeper penetrating bullet that bores it's way through the medium.
I could go on and on but will spare all of you the boring commentary.
What's your opinion on solid copper fluted bullets (Lehigh Defense)? Is projectile spin a factor?

 

Biggfoot44

Blackhawk
Joined
Sep 6, 2009
Messages
821
Kinetic Energy is :

Objective
Relatively simple for anyone to calculate
Been in use long enough , and broadly enough to compare lots of dispirate things over lots of years .
Simple enough to be used by lots of game departments to regulate what firearms may be used on what game .

The above explains the Why .

But meanwhile , KE by itself is pretty poor predictor of performance , for either hunting or self defense .

Further BUT , there is the extreme opposite of consensus of what reasonably consistent , and reasonably proportionate system of measurement to use instead of , or along side KE .

Everybody approaches backwards . They know what load/ cartridge they fancy , then design a comparison formula that shows it better than everything else .

Momentum is a semi popular one . but just like KE , the farther away from apples to apples , the funkier the results .


What strikes me as useful as any simple formula is the Late John Wooters's " L Factor .

Ft lb x bullet Diameter x Sectional Density = L. . Use the assumption that bullets intended to expand , will actually expand reasonably close to appropriate manner .

Does as well as any simple formula to give somewhat realistic comparison between small & fast vs medium & medium vs big & slow .
 

Mobuck

Hawkeye
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Messages
7,367
Location
missouri
"What's your opinion on solid copper fluted bullets (Lehigh Defense)? Is projectile spin a factor?"
I'm not familiar with the performance of the twisty nose flute designs and at this time can't really comment. There's a lot of stuff going on with those 'copper fluted bullets' and some of the factors are rifling rate and muzzle velocity.
A couple weeks back we did some (very caveman ish) testing of the Norma MHP 9mm ammo. This is an expanding monolith with skived flutes design--VERY impressive from 3.2", 4.5", and 16" barrels. Only lost 1 petal from 10 bullets tested. Really wicked expansion with no appreciable loss of penetration. One caveat: water is not going to create the drag factor that ballistic gelatin does so penetration in BG will likely be less. I like this bullet for what it does-expand at any tested velocity, punch deep enough to hit vitals, reduce possibility of over penetration and/or ricochet.
Monolithic bullets have been on the rifle scene for a long time with somewhat varied results. Even more factors to consider with hunting rifle bullets due to the initial velocity vs long range impact velocity and size/build of the game animals. My feelings: Monolith bullets are exceptional for producing deep penetration but may come up lacking at longer ranges or lower muzzle velocities. Keep the velocity up and I feel better about their performance. Case in point: I use a 25/06 with Nosler E-Tip bullets when hunting cow elk. Now cow elk aren't the big shouldered testosterone laced animals that bulls often are so more of a heavy boned big framed deer. The 100-110 grain E-Tips have killed EVERY elk they've hit at ranges from 200-400 yards and 4 of 5 went down within a few feet. The key is velocity at point of impact-enough to open that bullet nose up enough to create adequate tissue damage. Punching holes through game animals w/o causing adequate internal damage makes guides very grumpy.
 

GunnyGene

Hawkeye
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
6,804
Location
Monroe County, MS
"What's your opinion on solid copper fluted bullets (Lehigh Defense)? Is projectile spin a factor?"
I'm not familiar with the performance of the twisty nose flute designs and at this time can't really comment. There's a lot of stuff going on with those 'copper fluted bullets' and some of the factors are rifling rate and muzzle velocity.
A couple weeks back we did some (very caveman ish) testing of the Norma MHP 9mm ammo. This is an expanding monolith with skived flutes design--VERY impressive from 3.2", 4.5", and 16" barrels. Only lost 1 petal from 10 bullets tested. Really wicked expansion with no appreciable loss of penetration. One caveat: water is not going to create the drag factor that ballistic gelatin does so penetration in BG will likely be less. I like this bullet for what it does-expand at any tested velocity, punch deep enough to hit vitals, reduce possibility of over penetration and/or ricochet.
Monolithic bullets have been on the rifle scene for a long time with somewhat varied results. Even more factors to consider with hunting rifle bullets due to the initial velocity vs long range impact velocity and size/build of the game animals. My feelings: Monolith bullets are exceptional for producing deep penetration but may come up lacking at longer ranges or lower muzzle velocities. Keep the velocity up and I feel better about their performance. Case in point: I use a 25/06 with Nosler E-Tip bullets when hunting cow elk. Now cow elk aren't the big shouldered testosterone laced animals that bulls often are so more of a heavy boned big framed deer. The 100-110 grain E-Tips have killed EVERY elk they've hit at ranges from 200-400 yards and 4 of 5 went down within a few feet. The key is velocity at point of impact-enough to open that bullet nose up enough to create adequate tissue damage. Punching holes through game animals w/o causing adequate internal damage makes guides very grumpy.
Thanks. I've watched a couple videos of the Lehigh product (.45acp) just out of curiosity. Pretty impressive terminal performance. Also impressive price point (~$2/rnd). Underwood sells these in various calibers if you're interested in doing some experimenting with them.

Here's their .45acp collection.

 

Rick Courtright

Hawkeye
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Messages
7,880
Location
Redlands CA USA
I once though up of a test: Make a target 1,000 lbs and put it on wheels. Make it so the bullet will be stopped in that target. If the bullet had more than 1,000 ft lbs of energy would it move the target backwards. If not how many ft lbs would it take?

Hi,

Aren't you describing a form of a ballistic pendulum, used before chronographs came on scene to measure velocities? i think one needs to know his way around a slide rule to work one... ;)

Rick C
 

Rick Courtright

Hawkeye
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Messages
7,880
Location
Redlands CA USA
Wait, what?! You can buy bullets AND bourbon in the same store? Almost makes me wanna move to Mississippi.
Hi,

I dunno if the store's still there since the freeway bypass went in and then COVID hit, but the town of Mojave, CA--out in the desert near Edwards AFB--had a liquor store that listed liquor, cold beer, and ammo on the side of the building for years.

Rick C
 

outlaw_dogboy

Single-Sixer
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
126
Location
Maryland, USA
" Eskimos have been known to kill polar bears with 22LR."
Keep in mind that simply 'killing' an animal takes a distant second place to killing an animal ethically and quickly while facilitating recovery. "Native" hunters getting a single 22 rimfire bullet deep enough into a bear to achieve a blood trail might be all that's needed in an area of solid snow cover for miles. They might also run that bear down with dog teams or snow machines. Darned few 'modern' hunters have sufficient tracking skills to follow up an animal that doesn't fall within a few seconds.
Don't disagree with you at all. But the discussion was not (I think) about ethics. It was about, essentially, efficacy. And what determines that.
 
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
9,411
Location
Woodbury, Tn
I lived with the Inupiat’s along Alaska’s Northern coastline. They use smaller calibers because it damages less meat, and smaller holes in pelts. Jake told me how
They used pointy sticks to kill polar bear. At that range a .22 LR works good as does the 22/250 that they are fond of. Then we have the Alaskan guide with his puny 9 mm.
 
Joined
Jan 31, 2004
Messages
6,327
So the fishing guide got lucky. I value my life more than to try a stunt like that. I realize that the 9mm was all he had but I would not be in bear country with a 9mm as the only protection for my life. He made the choice to carry it.
 

Biggfoot44

Blackhawk
Joined
Sep 6, 2009
Messages
821
That was Phil Shoemaker , who has had gunfights with a. Number of anti social grizz . Enough to experement with different cals for first hand results .

From his experience , his take is to be quickly enough effective , it's brain shot or nothing . He's calm enough to consistently make brain shots .
 

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