When Are Loads 'Right' for Revolver ?

[henry-b]

I'm planning on reloading (44mag) sooner rather than later, and have been researching & reading...

Some folks, maybe many (mostly?) have written that the max load in their revolver is just below the point where the brass is hard to get out.

is this too simple an approach ?

I'm wondering (too much time on my hands if this is true or right. Seems to me, the cylinder's job is to restrict the brass from 'blowing up'. W/o the cylinder, the brass would have to be VERY strong to keep it from blowing up and causing too much excitement at the range ! But, if the brass is ez to get out, we have to assume 2 things -
1 - the brass was strong enough to resist plastic deformation and returned (mostly) to it's -before- diameter
2 - the cylinder kept the brass from moving too much, which would likely reult in plastic deformation
3 - it is possible that the brass fit into the cylinder w/o much clearance, as too much clearance would result in plastic deformation

By plastic deforamtion I mean that the brass didn't return (almost) to it's orig diameter, which might make it tight.

In metals, there is elastic & plastic deformation.

So, I'm wondering if a more tightly fitting brass would result in hotter loads being easier to remove ? A round where the brass fits tighter, might not have enough room to expand (plasticly) and therfore NOT expand (only elastic?) and be easier to remove.

Seems to me, the looser the brass is relative to the cylinder, the more clearance there is between cylinder and brass, the easier, more likley, the brass is to expand (plastically) and then be harder (tighter) to remove after firing.

Maybe, in general, the tighter the original brass is in the cyl, the less likely the brass is to (plastically) expand on firing.

I suppose also, the hotter the load, the more likely the brass is to be compressed against the cyl walls, and expand lengthwise. Measuring can confirm this. But, lengthwise expansion should not affect the tightness of the brass in the cylinder although...

So, I'm not suggesting I/we load hotter rounds in a Smith, but a Ruger or DW IMHO might be able to take a lot hotter than the (lawyer-approved) manuals suggest.

Question -
Has anyone taken the brass from that Max-Load (as it was harder to remove) and reloaded it to see if it got even hrader to remove ? Or did it stay the same ?

 

[wwb]

I've no strain gaged a revolver cylinder to confirm this, nor have I researched the behavior of brass (all my experience is iron, steel, and aluminum), but here's my take on it:

You're correct in that the brass expands to the cylinder wall, but then the cylinder expands as well. The hotter the load, the greater the expansion. The brass has already been stretched some before it contacts the cylinder, and then some more yet as the cylinder expands, possibly enough for the brass to have gone plastic (we sure hope the cylinder is still in the elastic range!). Additionally, at the moment of maximum expansion, the brass is also heated.... not sure how high a temp, but if you've ever caught an empty fresh out of an autoloader, they're HOT. The high temp when expanded may contribute to it taking a set.... I dunno.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

The softness of the brass and the roughness of the cylinder walls has more to do with hard extraction than anything else except maybe excessive pressure.

I would never load ammo by primer crush or case extraction. Stick with the known and published loads and data.

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

I usually start low and work up until I get the best accuracy. If accuracy does not happen I try another bullet or powder type ,but only change one component at a time. Good accuracy = good to go. I rarely strive for maximum velocity in my handloads. No game/target can tell the difference a hundred fPS makes in energy.

 

[wwb]

I usually start low and work up until I get the best accuracy. If accuracy does not happen I try another bullet or powder type ,but only change one component at a time. Good accuracy = good to go. I rarely strive for maximum velocity in my handloads........

What he said!

I've been reloading for over 40 years, and have, over that stretch of time, reloaded for .220 Swift, .223, .243, .260 Rem, .30-30, .308, .30-06, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, and .45 Auto. I have never had a case where the most accurate load was the max load.

 

[contender]

When are loads "Right" for a revolver?
When they are accurate AND within the safe limits of the manuals.
You mention; "but a Ruger or DW IMHO might be able to take a lot hotter than the (lawyer-approved) manuals suggest"

The lawyers are NOT the only reason the manuals have a max load. While it's true a Ruger or DW is generally stronger than many other guns,,, you can still blow one up. I have a 44 mag Super here that someone blew up. How? Generally, not following proper reloading & often trying to be maxing things beyond safe limits.


But the right load is the most accurate load. Velocity, power, etc don't mean a darned thing if you can't hit the target.

 

[grobin]

The right load is the one which provides enough velocity/muzzle energy to do the job while being accurate. Guns have bullets and loads which they prefer and shoot best with. The only way to find out is to pick a bullet you like and then work up loads using several promising powders. I tried some commercial loads and found, for example, my Glock 40 likes 180gr bullets. I tried a number of commercial loads to find this out. Now I am trying different powders with Berry's Superior Plated Bullets 40 S&W, 10mm Auto (401 Diameter) 180 Grain Plated Target Hollow Point bullets. So far I've tried no7, no9 and Blue Dot. I've still to try True Blue. Once I settle on a goal velocity I'm going to try some other bullets as well. My goal is to get a great performing target load that is inexpensive when hand loaded. If taxes are kind I'm considering a 10mm revolver, Blackhawk most likely. So I would repeat the process with it-lucky have leftovers so will not need to buy/make as much.

You need a really good chronograph like the LabRadar one. The cheap ones depend on lighting conditions and only give velocity at 10/15feet; which only approximates muzzle energy. They don't provide any down range information like a doppler radar. Yes doppler radar is expensive but they provide more and better information and if you are developing loads will save you time and money from false starts. If you are not developing loads just using the manuals forget this paragraph.

 

[kmoore]

I have a thought that others did not point out. Factory size brass easily drops into the cylinder. I would never want to have the brass so large that it is not freely dropped into the cylinder.

 

[henry-b]

Thx for the info so far...
Seems hard for me to fathom that a cylinder will expand at all. Maybe some minute amount, microns might be believable.
Still I wonder if anyone has reloaded brass that was moderately-hard/snug to get out of a cylinder, to see if it would get even more stuck. Seems to me it would not. Once the plastic expansion is done, it's over seems to me. No more room to expand, then contract slightly...physics.
Yea a chrono would be nice...especially if it were used as someone wanted to upgrade
I wonder if the most accurate load would be because that load was 'vibrationally-just right' similar to what the BOSS system does.

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

If the chambers have even the slightest trace of reverse taper or tooling marks, the brass can expand and not spring back enough to allow easy extraction. Maximum pressures will show this much faster than mid or starting loads. Some reloaders experience sticky extraction and just back off their loads until they no longer stick.
Some straight cases like the .30 carbine are notorious for hard extraction.

 

[wwb]

........... I would never want to have the brass so large that it is not freely dropped into the cylinder.

That's what a resizing die is for. For a rifle, I fireform it and neck size only after that (keeping the brass for each gun separate), but straight-wall pistol brass gets full-length resized every time.

 

[mikld]

I started my second round of reloading with 44 Magnum ammo (first round ended with messy divorce which predicted sale of my guns and equipment). My early 44 shooting I had a case of "Magnumitis" and many of my loads neared (one load was .5 gr under max), but none exceeded book maximum. I never experienced hard extraction from my 3, 44 Magnum revolvers. I also have a 357 revolver which I liked to use 160 gr. LSWC in and one load was a grand faux pas, a bit over 1/2 grain over max of True Blue. I shot one cylinder full and noticed extra heavy recoil and when I opened the cylinder the primers dropped out. The cases were more difficult to eject, but if that were my only indication of too hot a load, I might have ignored it. I ejected the brass by hand, a little stiffer than normal but not "hard". I figger if a load produces hard ejection I've already passed the max., safe load...

 

[grobin]

The above is why you need to know the signs of over pressure and back off early!

A chronograph is not a nice to have, but a must have if you want to develop hand loads. It's a good to have if you only use factory loads!

Unless you have some idea of the velocity that a given load produces you don't know how it compares to the loading manual for that load or to other loads you have done. If you are doing plinking loads or conservative hunting loads you can limp along without one.

The sky screen type depend on natural light for their operation. Their readings aren't very accurate (except for a couple commercial ones-that cost more than a radar one) and can change with time of day. Around local noon will be best. They get shot pretty frequently aswell. They are a pain to setup and useless in high wind. I have a MagnetoSpeed that is quite accurate and uses magnetic effects. It straps to the barrel so you must have about 3" of barrel clear to attach it. It works great on many rifles and some shotguns. With quite a bit of finegelling I got it to work on my old 357 mag Blackhawk. It's heavy so you will need a rest of some sort.
I've used the club's Labradar and am planning on getting my own. It has limitations: may need an external trigger for subsonic rounds, range depends but <=100yd., limited to <4000 ft/sec. It isn't affected by temperature, humidity or altitude. Produces a lot of useful data in spread sheet format so you can use wolframalpha to get things like bullet bc. There are industrial models which are more accurate and useful, Hornady uses them, but $$$$.

 

[grobin]

Safe way to get more bang for the buck without tedious development!
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/04/01/the-use-of-african-voodoo-bullets-and-beliefs-spreading/

 

[jsh]

Don't over analyze it. Making some thing relatively easy hard.

If you so desire to measure everything keep in mind each cylinder should be numbered.

 

[mikld]

I went to the link above and saw nuttin' about reloading, but; I follow my "rule" and tell new reloaders the same, I pay very little (no) attention to any load data from any forum expert, range rat, pet loads website, gun counter clerk, kindly reloading friend, or gun shop guru. I get a my initial load data from published reloading manuals and a bit from powder manufacturer's websites. I have always preferred printed data (I started pre web), getting my load data from reloading manuals and in 35+ years I experienced one squib and no Kabooms.

If after a couple years reloading you will be able to tell if a suggestion will benefit your reloading or blow up your gun (I once saw a recommended load of Unique on a forum, which was a full grain over max. according to my manuals. The post with the dangerous load went unchallenged for a full 24 hours and then the OP came back apologizing for his typo. What if a new reloader saw that info and loaded up some 357 Mags using the "hot" data and shot them?).

 

[5of7]

I usually decide what kind of load I am trying for and work toward that goal without damaging the gun or the brass.

If I want a top load, I start with lower pressure loads (from a reliable source) http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/node and shoot them over a chronograph to ascertain the velocity and at the same time checking the accuracy by shooting at a paper target.

I have found that once I achieve the published velocity with a given load (bullet, powder, charge, OAL, primer) that I am likely getting pressures that are close to what the published data indicated, and if it is accurate in my gun, I am done.

It is important to use a good chronograph in load development. If you don't own one, buy one. They are fairly inexpensive now days.

I use a Pact model 1 and it works well for my purposes. 8)

 

[Kevin]

Mikld: you make a great point about NOT trusting loading data from "questionable" sources like gun forums. Even here if someone posts a favorite "pet load" I might try it, but only after I've double checked it against a manual or a powder company's website.

Once I posted my favorite load for 327 here. I didn't make a typo, but did state an incorrect powder. Someone called me on it and point out my mistake right away. So, yeah, always double check your source.

I don't have a chronograph, but all y'all make good points about getting one.

And you can't judge a load by felt recoil. I loaded up some 327 last week and went to shoot them yesterday. It was 7.1 grains of HS-6 with a 100 grain poly coated semi wad cutter bullet. I've used that load before and it's slightly below the published data in my Hornaday manual. It's a fairly stiff load in my SP101 but in the 8 shot Blackhawk, which is quite a heavy gun, the same load was on the mild side as far as recoil was concerned.

So same bullet, different gun with different characteristics. In this case, the 'right' load for revolver needs to be revolver specific I think. Plus, a different load might be more accurate in the 327 SP101 vs the 327 Blackhawk.