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Bearcat
Maybe you should know how safely handle a weapon before you're allowed to carry one? Just sayin'...
What you carry isn't the entire story
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Maybe you should know how safely handle a weapon before you're allowed to carry one? Just sayin'...
Mandatory training. Isn't that one of those "common sense firearms things". Sadly those who mandate such things rarely have common sense.
Again, of course its good to be properly trained. But requiring training changes it from a right to a privilege.
When Oregon passed the current CCW law in the early 90s. It required training. The person must be at least 21 and demonstrate competence with a handgun. Disclaimer: I never went through the training. I know many who were instructors and taught the SD laws at one class, after I was told not to do anymore since I represented the state. The classes are put on by individuals at gun clubs.
Required training can become a double-edged sword.
Now in Oregon the law makers want the state police to conduct that training to all who buy a gun. If law makers write the class requirements it can cost too much, be too difficult to pass etc etc. All on purpose to have fewer citizens able to get the training and pass just to own a gun.
The current CCW training law has worked out really well and doesn't need to be expanded just to buy any firearm.
If I was to teach or write CCW training, it would be based 80% on firearms Safety and Self Defense law and 20% on range time. Each one of those 3 items would need to be demonstrated with a pass or failure. The last statements I would make to each class would be. "Remember this is basic training, it's your responsibility to know when these laws change, it's your responsibility to retain and build your shooting skills".
Edit: In Oregon the training classes are run by individuals, they take that information to their SO to get the CCW permit.
Required training can become a double-edged sword.
Now in Oregon the law makers want the state police to conduct that training to all who buy a gun. If law makers write the class requirements it can cost too much, be too difficult to pass etc etc. All on purpose to have fewer citizens able to get the training and pass just to own a gun.
The current CCW training law has worked out really well and doesn't need to be expanded just to buy any firearm.
If I was to teach or write CCW training, it would be based 80% on firearms Safety and Self Defense law and 20% on range time. Each one of those 3 items would need to be demonstrated with a pass or failure. The last statements I would make to each class would be. "Remember this is basic training, it's your responsibility to know when these laws change, it's your responsibility to retain and build your shooting skills".
Edit: In Oregon the training classes are run by individuals, they take that information to their SO to get the CCW permit.
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ssl92677
Bearcat
In California, county Sheriff departments process CCW applications. My county Sheriff has issued more than 60,000 CCW permits.
Personally, I have no problem with criminal background checks, a required 4-hour class, passing a written test and 72-round range qualify shoot requirements (first weapon, 20-rounds for each add'l weapon) all supervised by privately owned & approved facilities, nor do I have an issue with reasonable red-flag provisions.
I don't want every Tom, Dick & Harriett who think they're vigilantes running around with concealed weapons, but again, that's just me & a lot of other people as well.
Not only don't they have the mind set, they don't have the skill or want to obtain the skill.
A few years back a 70+ year old friend asked my advice about getting a handgun for his wife to have in the house so she would feel safer when he was not home. They live in a rural area, police response is time is usually in excess of 30 minutes. He already owned a Marlin 336, an older Mossberg pump 12 ga., an old Mossberg 22 rifle and a High Standard Military HD 22 pistol. I invited them over to discuss it and let them try out a variety of handguns at my backyard range. She had only ever shot the 22 pistol and rifle. He has arthritis in his fingers and couldn't pull the trigger on a double-action revolver, she didn't have the finger strength either. Neither of them could work the slide on any of my pistols. I recommended that they just stick with the 22 pistol that they had and could use.
A few days later I got a call from him saying they had gone to one of the local gun shops and bought a S&W Shield EZ 380 and could I show them how to use it. When they bought the gun they also bought one box of cheap FMJ practice ammo and a box of Critical Defense. He and his wife came over and we had a training session on how to load and shoot that pistol. They both shot one magazine. I had to reload the magazines because neither of them had the strength to reload them. I then asked if they were ready to do more shooting. They declined because the ammo was so expensive.
This year I asked him if they had shot that gun anymore. Nope. I asked him where he keeps it? It turns out the gun is locked up in a tool box in his garage and the magazines are stored on a shelf in the bedroom closet. She doesn't want the gun in the house because their Grandson might get it. He comes to visit from the west coast once a year.
I think there are a lot of people out there who like the idea of having a gun for protection but don't want to take the time, effort and expensive to become proficient with it.
Well I firmly believe in mandatory training... what you say!? Here's the difference, I believe everyone should be trained... has nothing to do with gun ownership... I think it should be required to live in this country.... and should start in grade school.. if you are past going to school like most of us here then you still need to go to a one day course s a minimum.
MANDATORY TRAINIG??
I participated in the first round of CCW training and certification classes held in my area. There was a lot of discussion of laws(even had the county prostituting Attorney giving actual/factual information). This was followed by required (MANDATORY) range time which was 'enlightening' to say the least. My friend and I were the only two proficient shooters and several of the others pulled new handguns out of the box for their live fire. Friend and I stepped up fired our required number of shots, laid our guns on the table, and retreated to a relatively safe area well behind the firing lining to watch the theatrics. The range staff managed to prevent any serious accidents but some of the students ran out of ammo before scoring the minimum number of hits on the 18x24 inch profile targets @ 7 yards. At the end of the day, everyone got 'certified' and approved to apply for their license.
After witnessing this, I have little faith in the average CCW carrier(mandatory training, certification, or otherwise).
I participated in the first round of CCW training and certification classes held in my area. There was a lot of discussion of laws(even had the county prostituting Attorney giving actual/factual information). This was followed by required (MANDATORY) range time which was 'enlightening' to say the least. My friend and I were the only two proficient shooters and several of the others pulled new handguns out of the box for their live fire. Friend and I stepped up fired our required number of shots, laid our guns on the table, and retreated to a relatively safe area well behind the firing lining to watch the theatrics. The range staff managed to prevent any serious accidents but some of the students ran out of ammo before scoring the minimum number of hits on the 18x24 inch profile targets @ 7 yards. At the end of the day, everyone got 'certified' and approved to apply for their license.
After witnessing this, I have little faith in the average CCW carrier(mandatory training, certification, or otherwise).
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In January or February of 1968, during the Tet Offensive, a couple of weeks before reporting to Ft. Benning for the Infantry Officers School, I went hunting, shot a squirrel and while looking at the once live, now dead squirrel I decided I wasn't going to kill anything else that wasn't trying to kill me. I've pretty much lived by this. I'm not opposed to folks hunting but just as soon someone else do the "killing for me" as I eat my steak. Besides the Army I've had several hundred hours of formal handgun training to include Thunder Ranch with Client Smith, KR Training Systems, and held a Texas peace officer's license. I always knew I was the one who was coming home that night. No doubt in my mind-may not have played-out that way, but that was/is my mindset. At 78 I am approaching the end of my "race". I just don't want it to be taken out by a dirtbag in the streets, at least without taking him with me.
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Very well said. The mindset necessary to fire a weapon defensively, eye to eye, is complicated and has to be
worked out before a firefight.
First, does a person have the resolve to fire a weapon directly into the center of mass of a human fully intending to kill or totally disable the attacker?
Second, the attacker may not be fully identified the split second prior to critical decision time, i.e.
the kill or be killed one tenth of a second. A natural inclination is to
hesitate and make sure you're
not about to shoot your sleep walking relative. Hesitation is deadly.
"Reaction" firing is only achieved through extensive training, forced exposure (combat), or being a "natural".
The mindset needs to be achieved or why bother carrying a weapon, in fact, a hesitant weapon will most certainly get the person holding that weapon killed.
On a dark but positive note the
bad guy will surly pick up a very fine weapon and won't even need to clean it.
The first force on force class I took in the first scenario I hesitated but it was after putting one round into the bad guy center mass.... before that it was muscle memory once I realized this was a kill or be killed situation...I had take a four day defensive handgun class a few month before this class and it was a lot of just draw and fire. the problem was the one round to center mass... the coach and observer did not call the scenario done.. and the guy laying on the ground then shot me.
The.Tumbleweed
Bearcat
In the 3X I've been confronted, and needed my weapon, I gave them every opportunity to back down before I needed to fire. Only 1 took it to the point I was already pressing the trigger.
It's a contest of wills. Your will to NOT be a victim, and their will to press their will upon you.
In each of these times they finally gave ground, and left.
I KNOW what I am capable of, the soundness of my weapon, and the damage it will inflict if needed.
THAT is the easy part. Knowing what you face, in the aftermath of shooting, of the legal challenges, and the potential to be criminalized, even if it was, in your opinion, a justified shooting.
This is why we study the laws, restrictions, courses, and practice, so that we face the least chance of ending up in jail for defending ourselves.
Let's see, what is that one sentence that ends "shall not be infringed". Sorry, any need for qualification is an infringment.
When I did my qualification for my DC permit I would say that half of the class would be a danger to themselves and everyone around them. We started out standing shoulder to shoulder but they had to stop that after the first few rounds because of how hazardous several of the people were. Old enough for school old enough for Gun Safety. I think High School PE should be like Basic Training. Elementary School should be Hunter and Basic safety and marksmanship.MANDATORY TRAINIG??
I participated in the first round of CCW training and certification classes held in my area. There was a lot of discussion of laws(even had the county prostituting Attorney giving actual/factual information). This was followed by required (MANDATORY) range time which was 'enlightening' to say the least. My friend and I were the only two proficient shooters and several of the others pulled new handguns out of the box for their live fire. Friend and I stepped up fired our required number of shots, laid our guns on the table, and retreated to a relatively safe area well behind the firing lining to watch the theatrics. The range staff managed to prevent any serious accidents but some of the students ran out of ammo before scoring the minimum number of hits on the 18x24 inch profile targets @ 7 yards. At the end of the day, everyone got 'certified' and approved to apply for their license.
After witnessing this, I have little faith in the average CCW carrier(mandatory training, certification, or otherwise).
So blind and mentally challenged people should have guns without any qualifications whatever.
There are no qualifiers on the sentence. Perhaps you'd like it if the First amendment said only people that agree with you have the right to voice their opinion. Or only folks of the correct ethnic background should be safe from illegal search. One could go on, but you get the idea. Rights are just that, or they aren't rights but privileges.
The "shall not be infringed" can be carried to a rediculous level. Should convicted criminals in prison possess and carry firearms? After all, some hang their hats on that phrase to the exclusion of any other consideration.
"So blind and mentally challenged people should have guns without any qualifications whatever."
Easy there 'Hvymax'. I've posted several times relating to the capability of my legally blind Son. He holds a carry permit in his home state based on knowledge and skill.
Easy there 'Hvymax'. I've posted several times relating to the capability of my legally blind Son. He holds a carry permit in his home state based on knowledge and skill.
