What makes a Ed Brown, Les Baer, Dan Wesson worth so much?
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ChuckS1
Bearcat
I'm thinking this thread has turned into the "99% against the 1%" thread.
All I can say is go to Camp Perry this July and you'll see a lot of guys knocking out the X rings at 50 yards and I'll bet my next paycheck that none of them will be shooting an out-of-the-box Ruger SR1911.
At the same time, I can bet my next paycheck none of those target guns aresa being used for carry and self defense. So it just depends on what you're wanting the pistol to do.
All I can say is go to Camp Perry this July and you'll see a lot of guys knocking out the X rings at 50 yards and I'll bet my next paycheck that none of them will be shooting an out-of-the-box Ruger SR1911. At the same time, I can bet my next paycheck none of those target guns aresa being used for carry and self defense. So it just depends on what you're wanting the pistol to do.
7p's
Single-Sixer
I can see ole REV is just having fun kibitzing from the sidelines, along with a few others. When Les Baer or anyone else turns out a 1.5" guaranteed pistol – the group is shot with a ransom rest by an individual who knows how to set up and use that rest – there is a little finesse that goes into shooting from that type of rest. I just have to assume most everyone knows how the "customs" are test fired – some are even test fired without sights in the Ransom rest, leaving it up to the individual to decide the type of sights or optics he wants to use.
I don't see why a builder wouldn't let you watch how the pistol is shot once he has it dialed in, if he is giving a guarantee. You can also take it to most large gun clubs, as they usually have a member or two that have a ransom rest if the club doesn't own one outright and test it yourself.
I tested my Clark & Shockey pistols with a ransom rest that was made available to me and put 10 rounds in 2.25" at 50 yards and back then – that was a very impressive group.
Have I ever seen a 10-shot 1" group shot at 50 yards – Nope, I haven't but others probably have. The best I've seen from a ransom rest was around 2" at 50 yards. I've never shot one of Les Baer's over a Ransom rest but I'll believe what he tells me without question. He is a man of integrity and that's good enough for me.
I have one of Baer's 1.5's and I can occasionally go under 3" at 50 yards with 10-shots rested (hands) - but I have done 5-shots right at 2" but I can't hold 10. 40 years ago I'm pretty sure I could have broke 2600 with this Baer, as I knocked on the door a few times with both the Clark & Shockey, but close only counts with heavy artillery.
Now do I believe that there have been 1911's shot from a ransom rest that printed a 10-shot group at 50 yards that measured 1" or less – yes I do, as I believe some 1911's made by the U.S. Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force in recent years have turned out some sub-1" pistols shot at 50 yards.
Here's a few current National Records – you'll see that some ole timers still are holding the National Records and they shot with open sights – today, most use optics, but it's still a matter of having an accurate pistol and years of practicing correct shooting technique.
Oh, and good luck with those Tiger Clubs – I think your "luck" on the course with those might be about the same as if you had a 1.5" Baer PII at the shooting range.
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/natl_records.asp
I thought the above web address would take you to the sites showing the records - my mistake. In the Discipline portion select outdoor pistol-15, in the Program section select whatever you wish to view and in the course section just select whatever yardage you want to see.
I don't see why a builder wouldn't let you watch how the pistol is shot once he has it dialed in, if he is giving a guarantee. You can also take it to most large gun clubs, as they usually have a member or two that have a ransom rest if the club doesn't own one outright and test it yourself.
I tested my Clark & Shockey pistols with a ransom rest that was made available to me and put 10 rounds in 2.25" at 50 yards and back then – that was a very impressive group.
Have I ever seen a 10-shot 1" group shot at 50 yards – Nope, I haven't but others probably have. The best I've seen from a ransom rest was around 2" at 50 yards. I've never shot one of Les Baer's over a Ransom rest but I'll believe what he tells me without question. He is a man of integrity and that's good enough for me.
I have one of Baer's 1.5's and I can occasionally go under 3" at 50 yards with 10-shots rested (hands) - but I have done 5-shots right at 2" but I can't hold 10. 40 years ago I'm pretty sure I could have broke 2600 with this Baer, as I knocked on the door a few times with both the Clark & Shockey, but close only counts with heavy artillery.
Now do I believe that there have been 1911's shot from a ransom rest that printed a 10-shot group at 50 yards that measured 1" or less – yes I do, as I believe some 1911's made by the U.S. Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force in recent years have turned out some sub-1" pistols shot at 50 yards.
Here's a few current National Records – you'll see that some ole timers still are holding the National Records and they shot with open sights – today, most use optics, but it's still a matter of having an accurate pistol and years of practicing correct shooting technique.
Oh, and good luck with those Tiger Clubs – I think your "luck" on the course with those might be about the same as if you had a 1.5" Baer PII at the shooting range.
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/natl_records.asp
I thought the above web address would take you to the sites showing the records - my mistake. In the Discipline portion select outdoor pistol-15, in the Program section select whatever you wish to view and in the course section just select whatever yardage you want to see.
7p's said:I can see ole REV is just having fun kibitzing from the sidelines, along with a few others.
Yeah ... mostly that's true !!
Have I ever seen a 10-shot 1" group shot at 50 yards – Nope, I haven't but others probably have. The best I've seen from a ransom rest was around 2" at 50 yards.
This is exactly what I meant ... In a previous post (forget by who) it was mentioned that these 'boutique' pistols would shoot into 1-1.5 inches CONSISTENTLY ... that is a far cry from doing it ONCE or 'maybe' doing it at all.
I have one of Baer's 1.5's and I can occasionally go under 3" at 50 yards with 10-shots rested (hands) - but I have done 5-shots right at 2" but I can't hold 10.
Understandable !! Still damn good shooting !
Now do I believe that there have been 1911's shot from a ransom rest that printed a 10-shot group at 50 yards that measured 1" or less – yes I do, as I believe some 1911's made by the U.S. Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force in recent years have turned out some sub-1" pistols shot at 50 yards.
I certainly do as well !!! I believe that half inch groups have even been shot at one time or another. But the difference is being able to do it CONSISTENTLY as a previous poster mentioned. If you tell me that a pistol can shoot into 1.5 inches at 50 yards CONSISTENTLY ... then I expect it to do just that CONSISTENTLY ... or maybe 9 out of 10 times ... hell .... I'll even give you 8 out of 10 times. I don't expect a pistol to shoot 100 rounds in 10 groups of 10, and have ONE group be into 1.5 inches, and then call the gun a 1.5 inch gun.
Oh, and good luck with those Tiger Clubs – I think your "luck" on the course with those might be about the same as if you had a 1.5" Baer PII at the shooting range.
Yeah ... I'd have to say it would be about the same .... unfortunately ... LOL
I guess you're saying you don't have very high hopes for my success on the PGA tour ??? Do I have that right ???
Or at Camp Perry ?
REV
7p's
Single-Sixer
revhigh said:7p's said:Have I ever seen a 10-shot 1" group shot at 50 yards – Nope, I haven't but others probably have. The best I've seen from a ransom rest was around 2" at 50 yards.
This is exactly what I meant ... In a previous post (forget by who) it was mentioned that these 'boutique' pistols would shoot into 1-1.5 inches CONSISTENTLY ... that is a far cry from doing it ONCE or 'maybe' doing it at all.
That was consistent - did it several times in a row. The pistol didn't have a 1.5 guarentee.
I have one of Baer's 1.5's and I can occasionally go under 3" at 50 yards with 10-shots rested (hands) - but I have done 5-shots right at 2" but I can't hold 10.
Understandable !! Still damn good shooting !
Now do I believe that there have been 1911's shot from a ransom rest that printed a 10-shot group at 50 yards that measured 1" or less – yes I do, as I believe some 1911's made by the U.S. Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force in recent years have turned out some sub-1" pistols shot at 50 yards.
I certainly do as well !!! I believe that half inch groups have even been shot at one time or another. But the difference is being able to do it CONSISTENTLY as a previous poster mentioned. If you tell me that a pistol can shoot into 1.5 inches at 50 yards CONSISTENTLY ... then I expect it to do just that CONSISTENTLY ... or maybe 9 out of 10 times ... hell .... I'll even give you 8 out of 10 times. I don't expect a pistol to shoot 100 rounds in 10 groups of 10, and have ONE group be into 1.5 inches, and then call the gun a 1.5 inch gun.
That is consistent - I would say they probably shot from the Ransom rest 20-10 shot groups before they turn the pistol over to the shooter. I know of no guarentee that is just a one time deal.Oh, and good luck with those Tiger Clubs – I think your "luck" on the course with those might be about the same as if you had a 1.5" Baer PII at the shooting range.
Yeah ... I'd have to say it would be about the same .... unfortunately ... LOL
I guess you're saying you don't have very high hopes for my success on the PGA tour ??? Do I have that right ??? Yup!
Or at Camp Perry ?
REV
7p's said:revhigh said:7p's said:Have I ever seen a 10-shot 1" group shot at 50 yards – Nope, I haven't but others probably have. The best I've seen from a ransom rest was around 2" at 50 yards.
This is exactly what I meant ... In a previous post (forget by who) it was mentioned that these 'boutique' pistols would shoot into 1-1.5 inches CONSISTENTLY ... that is a far cry from doing it ONCE or 'maybe' doing it at all.
That was consistent - did it several times in a row. The pistol didn't have a 1.5 guarentee.
I have one of Baer's 1.5's and I can occasionally go under 3" at 50 yards with 10-shots rested (hands) - but I have done 5-shots right at 2" but I can't hold 10.
Understandable !! Still damn good shooting !
Now do I believe that there have been 1911's shot from a ransom rest that printed a 10-shot group at 50 yards that measured 1" or less – yes I do, as I believe some 1911's made by the U.S. Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force in recent years have turned out some sub-1" pistols shot at 50 yards.
I certainly do as well !!! I believe that half inch groups have even been shot at one time or another. But the difference is being able to do it CONSISTENTLY as a previous poster mentioned. If you tell me that a pistol can shoot into 1.5 inches at 50 yards CONSISTENTLY ... then I expect it to do just that CONSISTENTLY ... or maybe 9 out of 10 times ... hell .... I'll even give you 8 out of 10 times. I don't expect a pistol to shoot 100 rounds in 10 groups of 10, and have ONE group be into 1.5 inches, and then call the gun a 1.5 inch gun.
That is consistent - I would say they probably shot from the Ransom rest 20-10 shot groups before they turn the pistol over to the shooter. I know of no guarentee that is just a one time deal.
Oh, and good luck with those Tiger Clubs – I think your "luck" on the course with those might be about the same as if you had a 1.5" Baer PII at the shooting range.
Yeah ... I'd have to say it would be about the same .... unfortunately ... LOL
I guess you're saying you don't have very high hopes for my success on the PGA tour ??? Do I have that right ??? Yup!
Or at Camp Perry ?
REV
7P's .... yer KILLIN' me ... LOL !!!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year !!
REV
claimbuster
Single-Sixer
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I work with a guy that is always wearing his Rolex President. It probably cost him $10K. To me spending more than $39.95 for a watch at Sam's Club is a waste.
Lots of folks buy their clothes at high end boutiques of have clothes custom tailored. My tailor is Sam (same guy that sells me a watch).
I drive a 10 year old truck with 150,000 miles.
My idea of a vacation is going to Kansas, etc, etc.
However, whether it be a DW, Les Baer, Cooper rifle, etc, then it very difinitely is important to ME. Really don't care what others think, it is what makes MY motor run.
Just saying.
I work with a guy that is always wearing his Rolex President. It probably cost him $10K. To me spending more than $39.95 for a watch at Sam's Club is a waste.
Lots of folks buy their clothes at high end boutiques of have clothes custom tailored. My tailor is Sam (same guy that sells me a watch).
I drive a 10 year old truck with 150,000 miles.
My idea of a vacation is going to Kansas, etc, etc.
However, whether it be a DW, Les Baer, Cooper rifle, etc, then it very difinitely is important to ME. Really don't care what others think, it is what makes MY motor run.
Just saying.
32magfan
Blackhawk
First, me say in all honesty, that 1911's (or any semi-auto) are not what floats my boat. I do have a couple - an old LLama from the '90's that was all I could afford then and a Stainless Taurus my Dad bought for me.
I bought him the SR1911 for Father's Day this year. It shoots 2.5-3" from a rest at 25 yards. I think it is a great pistol for the money.
My buddy Jeff has several 1911's, even a WWII veteran pistol that is 99% and has a very interesting history. He bought a Les Baer earlier this year (Premiere II) for under $2,000. It is Tight... so tight you have to "bump" it to operate the slide. It shoots better than any semi-auto I have ever fired. Jeff shoots it better than all his other 1911's - he's an old Bullseye shooter.
There is a difference. I may never spend the $ as I am so eat up buying pairs of revolvers but I can dream. :shock: I wanted one after I shot it. The Ruger will be good enough for me I think. I agree that alot of people that get one of the 3K's probably can't shoot well enough to tell the difference. I know one guy who customizes 1911's that kills worms when he shoots but he "builds" nice pistols.
It is good to see and appreciate nice stuff. I don't envy anyone's 3K customs. I just don't see a need for one myself. That's what makes the world go 'round I guess. :wink:
Merry Christmas,
32Magfan
I bought him the SR1911 for Father's Day this year. It shoots 2.5-3" from a rest at 25 yards. I think it is a great pistol for the money.
My buddy Jeff has several 1911's, even a WWII veteran pistol that is 99% and has a very interesting history. He bought a Les Baer earlier this year (Premiere II) for under $2,000. It is Tight... so tight you have to "bump" it to operate the slide. It shoots better than any semi-auto I have ever fired. Jeff shoots it better than all his other 1911's - he's an old Bullseye shooter.
There is a difference. I may never spend the $ as I am so eat up buying pairs of revolvers but I can dream. :shock: I wanted one after I shot it. The Ruger will be good enough for me I think. I agree that alot of people that get one of the 3K's probably can't shoot well enough to tell the difference. I know one guy who customizes 1911's that kills worms when he shoots but he "builds" nice pistols.
It is good to see and appreciate nice stuff. I don't envy anyone's 3K customs. I just don't see a need for one myself. That's what makes the world go 'round I guess. :wink:
Merry Christmas,
32Magfan
Barbarosa
Single-Sixer
I saved and bought my Baer 1911 and love it, it does shoot better than any of my handguns period. I am still saving for a SR 1911 because I will more likely to use it as an everyday packing gun.
7p's
Single-Sixer
Merry Christmas all.
Barbarosa - just a suggestion - carry that Baer and after a couple months, maybe a bit longer, the bluing will start to rub off and when you decide it's time to do something about it - just have it Ion-bonded. You'll save a little money over purchasing the SR1911 and that finish will probably outlast ya and won't change the tolerances on the Baer.
The second best suggestion would be; purchase the SR1911 but still carry the Baer.
Barbarosa - just a suggestion - carry that Baer and after a couple months, maybe a bit longer, the bluing will start to rub off and when you decide it's time to do something about it - just have it Ion-bonded. You'll save a little money over purchasing the SR1911 and that finish will probably outlast ya and won't change the tolerances on the Baer.
The second best suggestion would be; purchase the SR1911 but still carry the Baer.
If I can't get the job done with my RIA, SR1911 or my series 70 Colt, a Les Baer, Ed Brown or any of the high priced customs won't make any difference. I can keep all my shots on a paper plate at 50 yds on a good day so I guess I can protect myself or have fun at the range with my friends shooting steel plates. If I was a serious bullseye shooter I would probably have a Custom 45, but I'm not. I shoot to have fun. The SR1911 is a very capable pistol and the very high majority of the people that buy it will never shoot it to its capability.
JMHO
Jim
JMHO
Jim
918v said:
7P's knows that ...
By the way ... it's a rare accuracy guarantee that depends on ANY 'lot' of factory ammo for that. I've never seen one that didn't specify a handload for that kind of guarantee ... without being a handload ... there would be no way to guarantee anything.Ammo means everything when shooting for accuracy, which is why all those that have only ever shot ammo like WWB or Blazer due to cost ... have not yet realized the potential of either their gun ... or themselves.
REV
I know Les and usually talk with him at the local car shows 3-5 times a year, and have been to his shop (Illinois one, not the new one in Le Claire Iowa).
My LGS is a dealer for him and I have seen many used 1911's traded in there for a Baer but have never seen a used Baer in his shop. I hear a lot of praise and nothing bad about them. For me it would be like the comment about using very expensive golf clubs. I would not play better with them. I have an SR1911 and love it, but my eyes and skills would not let me shoot any better with one of Les Baers pistols.
That being said, I have a Les Baer AR and it is absolutely awesome. Most of my friends shoot AR's but this is my first. All of them comment on how well made this gun is, and the accuracy is super. With Federal Premium I am getting 1/4 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards, and yesterday I was shooting at 200 yards and my biggest group was still under an inch with most groups at 5/8 inch. Yep this rifle cost a lot more than a Bushmaster and most others, but it shoots all kinds of ammo with 100% reliability and even the cheap stuff groups very well.
As to the OP question what makes them worth so much, it is all the hand fitting and precision that goes into each gun Baer Custom builds. These aren't mass produced. I waited 17 weeks for mine after I ordered it. No it is not for everyone, but neither is a $300 knife or a $1000.00 scope.
My LGS is a dealer for him and I have seen many used 1911's traded in there for a Baer but have never seen a used Baer in his shop. I hear a lot of praise and nothing bad about them. For me it would be like the comment about using very expensive golf clubs. I would not play better with them. I have an SR1911 and love it, but my eyes and skills would not let me shoot any better with one of Les Baers pistols.
That being said, I have a Les Baer AR and it is absolutely awesome. Most of my friends shoot AR's but this is my first. All of them comment on how well made this gun is, and the accuracy is super. With Federal Premium I am getting 1/4 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards, and yesterday I was shooting at 200 yards and my biggest group was still under an inch with most groups at 5/8 inch. Yep this rifle cost a lot more than a Bushmaster and most others, but it shoots all kinds of ammo with 100% reliability and even the cheap stuff groups very well.
As to the OP question what makes them worth so much, it is all the hand fitting and precision that goes into each gun Baer Custom builds. These aren't mass produced. I waited 17 weeks for mine after I ordered it. No it is not for everyone, but neither is a $300 knife or a $1000.00 scope.
Rumrunner said:
There's other reasons for the above as well. And this is not to take anything away from his products. Almost ANY high end product is a specialty product, and as such has a much smaller portion of the population that is interested in it. Because of that ... the value of these high end products drops like a rock on the used market. A used $800 Springfield may sell used for $600-650, but a used $3000 Baer or Wilson may have to be priced used at $1000 or so to sell. Even then ... most buyers would choose a NEW $800 Springfield over a USED $3000 Baer. Right or wrong ... many want NEW when it comes to guns.
Many high end owners are simply not willing to take that kind of a loss, and would just keep the gun in the safe if they didn't like it or want it anymore. Not only that .... what would you trade TO, if you traded in a Baer or Wilson ?? Not much above them .... To make matters even worse ... most who own or can afford to own guns at that level aren't worried about a couple thousand anyway, and even if there's a used one available, will probably just go to him and order their own brand new. There's a lot going on in the used high end gun market, and it's not ALL just because they're so good that no one will give them up.
I would certainly consider a used one if the price was really right, but I would NEVER pay full boat for a new one.
REV
ronnielc
Bearcat
Are all of you rich?
I ask that and I have purchased 7 Rugers in 14 months. If I had stuck with my 22/45 and LCR, I could have a Wilson or Dan Wesson.
I ask that and I have purchased 7 Rugers in 14 months. If I had stuck with my 22/45 and LCR, I could have a Wilson or Dan Wesson.
ronnielc
Bearcat
I guess Springfield custom does good stuff since Rob Leatham shoots them?
