What makes a Ed Brown, Les Baer, Dan Wesson worth so much?

[rugerguy]

Bingo, Flash about hit it on the head though he felt to him it was NOT a "status symbol" but in fact it is, ALL luxury items are bought by those who can, do ( or think they can) afford one...in the hands of a GOOD shooter, an Air Force Premium Grade 1911A1,will shoot as well as any of the top dollar guns out there......its in the hands of the shooter and how GOOD they really are. Just watch any of the top ,military service shooters and their guns are built AND maintained by their branch service armorers..........
folks spend the money cause it's a "good feeling" buy ,its gotta make them shoot better cause its a "such & such" custom build............
the target don't know the difference nor does the 'dead' hunting game or the 'bad guy , "perp".........you got the money , you buy what YOU want, I know my limits and I know where my guns shoot and what they are capable of, and NONE of them cost over $500...........one hole groups, are one hole groups, tough to improve on that...........I KNOW I'm gonna hit what I'm aiming at...................besides, if they were'nt 'making money' and putting out a GOOD product, they would NOT be in business for very long..........
Don't forget the 'top gun' civilian shooters for the MOST part are "sponsored" so they are using stuff that is paid for and maintained for them,as well as all that ammo they get to practice with........ :wink:

 

[buscadero]

I'd be interested to know how many of you have missed your target because your gun wasn't up to it.
Every gun I have is more accurate than I am.
I will admit, if money was readily available, I probably would
have a few high end guns but probably wouldn't shoot any better. They would be my Bar-B Q guns.
JMHO
Jim

 

[ChuckS1]

At 25 yards and less, with most loads, any gun is good enough. At 50 yards, with lots of practice and the right loads, you'll see the difference if you're shooting soda can size targets. A 2" group at 15 yards can translate into 6" at 50 yards.

 

[7p's]

Rugerguy – Those military shooters are shooting some of the finest 1911's made – the branch service armorers are some of the best of the best and the top grade military guy on the line with one of their "creations" is giving up nothing to a 1.5" Les Baer – in fact he's probably got a half inch or better on the Baer. When that armorer retires he'll build you a 1911 just like it but you will pay him for his time and talent and I seriously doubt it will be under 3 grand in today's dollars.

There's not many "sponsored" 2700 shooters at Camp Perry and I serious doubt you'll ever see someone shoot the top 10 civilian scores with a $500.00 1911 manufactured in the last 5 years. I say the last 5 years, as back in the day Jim Clark, R.L. Shockey and others turned out some mighty fine custom 1911's that cost well under $500.00 but that was when the dollar was a dollar.

Just mingle a little with some fine pistol competitors and you'll probably find that they started out shooting an accurate 1911 and then progressed to a very high-end 1911 once their skill set improved to take advantage of that particular well made expensive custom pistol capable of shooting one small ragged hole at 50 yards. Some progressed faster than others and then some never could manage to find the time to shoot everyday to progress to the point where their skill level would benefit from such a pistol.

When you see a person with a high-end 1911 capable of shooting well under 2" at 50 yards just scope his target at 50 yards – you probably won't see any 8's, there will probably be 3 to 7 - 9's and the rest will be 10's & X's – Ya, his status symbol says – master class or high master class and that's an accomplishment years in the making and the price of the 1911 is less costly than the progressive reloader and components over the years to get to his "status symbol".

For most of us it doesn't matter what grade 1911 we have in our hand as anything small beyond 50 feet is pretty safe – and many think the 1911 is only useful for close-in self defense work and would never think of hunting with it or shooting prairie dogs at ranges up to 100 yards. Well, there are some who will hunt with it and scare hell out of prairie dogs at 100 yards. Enough said from me.

 

[buscadero]

At 25 yards and less, with most loads, any gun is good enough. At 50 yards, with lots of practice and the right loads, you'll see the difference if you're shooting soda can size targets. A 2" group at 15 yards can translate into 6" at 50 yards.

If I could hold a 6" group at 50 yards, off hand, I'd be the toughest kid on the block :lol: Most average shooters, once-a-year hunters, can't do that with a rifle.
JMOH
Jim

 

[Xrayist]

Because everyone knows that the more expensive your gun is the better you will shoot, regardless of any previous shooting experience. A new shooter will not be able to keep 3 shots in 10 inches at 7 yards with a plain Colt or Ruger or Springfield, but give him a very expensive pistol, by a "name" maker and that same shooter will be able to put three shots in one hole at 25 yards.
I have shot many "high" end 1911's, and shoot just as good with my Series 70 Colt, slightly modified with better fixed sights, long trigger and crisp 7 lb trigger pull, GI brown plastic grips, Armoloyed frame, and stainless factory thumb safety.
Not only that, but I can take my gun completely apart, (with the exception of ejector and plunger tube), with only one small punch to get the mainspring housing pin out. I don't need a straightened paper clip to work on the full length guide rod disassembled like my buddy's high end gun.
I will spend 850 on a good used Colt, spend a couple of hundred on minor modifications and then spend the other 2-4K on reloading supplies and actually LEARN to shoot properly and not depend on equipment to do if for me.

 

[918v]

What if you want a tight, smooth, accurate, reliable pistol with the sights/controls/premium materials right from the getgo? A $3000 Springfield Professional 1911, after 50,000 rounds (basically a lifetime of shooting), will still be tighter and more accurate than a brand new Colt. A novice learning to shoot such a gun will learn to shoot it during the break-in period and will enjoy it throughout his life. A Colt owner, on the other hand, will sooner or later want to mess with it (which is fun in itself) but most people don't like to modify guns.

I personally want my handguns to shoot my poobutt handloads into an inch at 50 feet. Believe it or not, this is a pretty tough requirement. None of the base 1911's will do it, but a base 1911 with a fitted match barrel will. So I could buy a Colt and wait six months for the barrel work to be done, or buy one of those "premium" 1911s and go shooting.

Some people like nice stuff and will pay extra for it.

 

[revhigh]

A $3000 Springfield Professional 1911, after 50,000 rounds (basically a lifetime of shooting), will still be tighter and more accurate than a brand new Colt.

I'm sure you're right, and I have a lot of respect for both of the above brands. A REAL lot of respect. However ... I don't think the accuracy portion of the above statement is due entirely to frame to slide 'tightness' ... which ... while many people strive for incredible tightness ... isn't really responsible for much of the accuracy equation (barrel to slide tightness and perfection being far more important), unless the degree of 'non-tightness' is ridiculously excessive ... bordering on sloppy.

Colt has never been known for having very tight slide to frame fitment, in fact they're famously known for their lack of it ... however thay make extremely accurate 1911's, and always have.

I think a lot of the excitement about the degree of 'tightness' of a 1911 is in the illusion that with a higher degree of machining excellence, that you automatically get extreme accuracy. Machining excellence and tightness is undoubtedly pleasing to look at, yet doesn't necessarily result in an equivalent level of accuracy. As you know ... there are a bunch of variables that go into extreme accuracy in a 1911, and while machining excellence and tightness participate in the equation, they are not the be all and end all of accuracy.

I've shot Colts that rattled like a coffee can full of bolts that would shoot the eyes off a gnat at 25 yards, and I've shot $1200+ kimbers with ZERO play in the slide that couldn't shoot into a baseball sized group at 50 feet and had reliability issues due to their extreme 'tightness'.

Sometimes accuracy in a 1911 is just plain luck .... you get a good one that just clicks off the shelf ... or you pay $3K and get a mediocre one ... either one is very possible. I have a $400 Springfield GI that is every bit as accurate as my Colt Gold Cup National Matches, yet you would never predict that to happen.

REV

 

[9x19]

Hmmm, the slide stop pin resides in the frame, while the barrel lives in the slide, so a good slide to frame fit makes it easier to consistently get full solid contact between barrel feet and slide stop pin.... which can have a big impact on accuracy.

 

[918v]

I don't think the accuracy portion of the above statement is due entirely to frame to slide 'tightness' ... which ... while many people strive for incredible tightness ... isn't really responsible for much of the accuracy equation (barrel to slide tightness and perfection being far more important), unless the degree of 'non-tightness' is ridiculously excessive ... bordering on sloppy.

It does affect the durability of the accuracy by aligning everything consistently from shot to shot. If you fit a match barrel to a loose gun, it will definitely tighten things up and improve accuracy, but that state won't last very long because the inconsistent lockup will eventually wear the top and bottom lugs as well as the bushing.

On a gun where there is hardly any play between the frame and the slide, the consistency of the lockup is maintained throughout the life of the weapon and the accuracy is maintained longer. Springfield Custom guns have frames fitted to slides where the frame rails are machined and matched to individual slides, then lapped in. The frame rails are not peened. The slides are not squeezed. These guns will not shoot loose. In fact, the Professional models are guaranteed to shoot under 2" at 25 yards with Golden Sabres for 50,000 rounds.

I agree that accuracy is due as much to voodoo as barrel quality and fit, but a tight gun is more likely to be accurate with a wide range of ammunition than a loose one which may be accurate with a load or two. I owned a Series '70 Gold Cup and know how it shot- nothing special.

 

[revhigh]

Agreed on all points, but as you mentioned ... much of it is voodoo and luck ... some guns just shoot better than others ... no matter the cost. Whether they be $400 RIAs ... colt gcs ... or $3k Springfield customs. I love Springfields by the way.

Some of those accuracy guarantees crack me up. Like they'd ever let you be there while they were testing it.

Both my Gold Cups (series 80) are spectacular, as are all my buddies who have them. Never an issue in well over 25k rounds.

REV

 

[7p's]

I think this thread could go on forever but one should never equate a good accurate pistol with voodoo and luck unless you're talking about a plain-Jane off the shelf costing a couple hundred dollars – like $700.00.

When an individual purchases a high-end accurate 1911 he either does so because he has a "need" for that accuracy or he just has a desire to own a very well made and accurate pistol and both reasons are more than sufficient IMO.

In the days gone by we purchased 1911's from gunsmiths like Jim Clark and Richard Shockey to name a few and they came with a test target and load. We used that load and tinkered with a few other loads in an effort to do better than the test target, which back then varied from 2.2" to 2.5" at 50 yards for a 10-shot group from a ransom rest. The military boys built their own and always seemed to do better than the rest. It goes without saying that nobody has ever shoot to the custom pistol's capability but it will show just how good that particular shooter is, as those 9's at 50 yards are all his, not the pistol's fault.

A High Master Classification is quite an honor and there's not very many shooters possessing the shooting ability to earn that classification – but one thing is certain – he must possess both the shooting ability and a pistol capable of shooting tiny groups at 50 yards.

Don't think for 1 minute that the quality boys putting out those accuracy guarantees can't back them up, otherwise they would be shown to be frauds and would be out of business in a hurry in this modern day internet age.

A Baer 1911 PII with a 1.5" guarantee means it will shoot a 10-shot group measuring from 1" to 1.5" at 50 yards consistently – No luck or voodoo involved, just plain good ole craftsmanship and attention to detail – you do have to pay a little more for these craftsmen's skills. It's up to you to decide if you want to pay the freight - most don't, but some of us do.

I no longer have the "need", just a desire to own a fine shooting 1911, so when that prairie dog or coyote gets to live another day, he owns his good fortune to my poor eyesight and shooting ability and not that Baer 1911 - 40 years ago he might not have been so fortunate.

 

[buscadero]

I've got a 3 screw, 357 mag, Blackhawk that'll keep inside 1.5" at 50 yards and when I bought it new it cost me a whole $87. at W.T.Grants in Bangor, Maine.
Jim

 

[revhigh]

you do have to pay a little more for these craftsmen's skills.

A 'little' more ???

A 'little' more is 10-20% ....

4 - 5 times as much is more like it .....


REV

 

[revhigh]

Don't think for 1 minute that the quality boys putting out those accuracy guarantees can't back them up, otherwise they would be shown to be frauds and would be out of business in a hurry in this modern day internet age.

It's a damn rare HUMAN that can shoot into 1-1.5 inches at 50 yards 'consistently' as you mention ... ransom rests ... maybe .... humans ... not so much ....

Now ... given the above ... can the vast majority of people actually buying these guns utilize them to the level that they're supposedly built ?? Or are they mostly just hackers with a lot of money 'buying the same golf clubs that Tiger Woods uses .... expecting to have the clubs make him a professional golfer' ?

If I was paying for and buying what the boutique builders are selling ... I'd need to see those test targets being shot in person before I'd write a $3K+ check ... that's for DAMN sure. Given the egos and attitudes that most of these boutique builders have, I'm pretty sure they'd say something like ... 'If you don't believe me then get the hell out of my shop ... I'm not selling to you'. Uh huh .... why not just PROVE it and do it in FRONT OF ME ?? Who knows ... maybe some actually WILL do it in front of you. That would be really cool to see.

I've never seen anything like that done 'consistently'. Rest or no rest. Actually ... I've never seen it done ... EVER ... even ONCE. Have you ever seen a 1 inch group shot at 50 YARDS with ANY handgun over open sights ?

REV

 

[buscadero]

If I had one of those big bucks Les Baers or Ed Browns and Rob Leatham only had a SR1911........
Boy, I bet I could show him a thing or two :wink:
Jim

 

[revhigh]

If I had one of those big bucks Les Baers or Ed Browns and Rob Leatham only had a SR1911........
Boy, I bet I could show him a thing or two :wink:
Jim

Yeah !!! I bought the same clubs as Tiger ... I've just decided I'm going on the PGA tour next year ... should take me from 105 down to about 65 I'd think ...


REV

 

[buscadero]

That's just how I'm thinking, REV
Jim

 

[The Wall]

Don't think for 1 minute that the quality boys putting out those accuracy guarantees can't back them up, otherwise they would be shown to be frauds and would be out of business in a hurry in this modern day internet age.

I've never seen anything like that done 'consistently'. Rest or no rest. Actually ... I've never seen it done ... EVER ... even ONCE. Have you ever seen a 1 inch group shot at 50 feet with ANY handgun over open sights ?

REV

I think he said 50 yards not feet. Hard to do with a rifle let alone a handgun.

 

[revhigh]

Ooops ... you're right .... and I knew that ... just mistyped it (fixed it too ) .... which makes it all the more telling.

REV