Years ago I had a 1976 Chevy Suburban that I bought new. Nothing electronic and easy to work on. Changing a headlamp meant lifting the hood and popping out the bad one, plugging in the new one. Even a kid could do it. And most everything else in that car was accessible and straightforward to work on, even for a non-mechanically inclined guy like me. Even the third row seat was simple. No folding down or anything like that. It bolted in with four bolts that I would tighten by crawling under the car to put the nut on the bolt that my wife would hold inside the vehicle. We didn't take the third row out too often for that reason. That car had 225,000 miles on it before it finally gave up the ghost.
What are auto engineers thinking?
- Thread starter vito
- Start date
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I am convinced that the dealer network is at least partially behind making it difficult for the DIY guy to service his car. By doing so, it makes work for their service departments which are the main source of profit for them. For example; My wife’s Genesis needed a headlight replacement which isn’t a warranty item. I was quoted $300 for the lamp plus labor estimated at another $300. I refused and was cautioned that the repair was difficult and required removal of the bumper, wheel weld liners, and other parts. I bought the bulb at an auto parts store for $60, pulled the wheel welds and accessed the bulb through the back of the head light assembly. Done! I have had other similar experiences with other dealers also. Like a $1K front brake job that I did myself for a bit over $200.
Any time you buy a car, last thing before you sign any thing, tell the SALESMAN to pull one headlight bulb out and put it back AND one tail light.
gjgalligan
Single-Sixer
Actually the dealers make the money for service, not the manufactures.
Swampbilly_2
Single-Sixer
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My old 1992 FORD F150 was a breeze to change headlight bulbs...no tools required. Go to the back of each housing...twist the bulb receptacle to dislodge it from the main housing....pull and plug in new bulb...place and twist back into place to lock it. No headlight readjustment required either.
Driving a 2010 FORD F150 now...have not yet had to change a headlight bulb and not yet researched what is involved. Hoping it is a similar scenario.
Driving a 2010 FORD F150 now...have not yet had to change a headlight bulb and not yet researched what is involved. Hoping it is a similar scenario.
The manufacturers make their money on car sales and OEM parts sales to the dealers. Dealers make zero net profit on new car sales. Dealers' profits come from services and parts sales. So if a manufacturer builds a car that REQUIRES repairs/replacements be done by the dealer, that makes both of them happy.
The only loser in this is the car owner. In the old days some folks (most on this forum, for example) did much of the repair/maintenance to their vehicles and for them, dealership repairs were the exception. Today, the combination of Gen X/Z mechanically-stupid drivers and increasingly complex car designs compel replacements, not repairs (e.g., replace entire headlight assemblies instead of bulbs). Vehicle complexity and owner ineptness are the lifelines that keep dealers afloat.
Remember - dealership profitability isn't particularly impressive. The REAL reason an investor owns a dealership is to buy, hold, pay for, and sell the real estate on which the dealership is located.
Yep; way back when you could actually work on a car. I rebuilt a number of GEO Storms (Isuzu). This was one of three I had with over 200,000 miles.
freakindawgen
Single-Sixer
Dad bought a 1977 Suburban new also, a Scottsdale the "fancy" one. Still very basic, loved that truck. Fast fwd to last year. Dad has a new Honda and after starting won't come out of park. Calls dealer he says bring it in......
Dad searches the interweb and finds out its a burnt brake light.
Dad searches the interweb and finds out its a burnt brake light.
contender
Ruger Guru
I have always been of the mind that any manufactured item, that requires regular maintenance, should be designed to make it fairly easy & not expensive.
Oil changes, headlights, brakes, transmission fluid & filter changes, battery, air filters, spark plugs & wires, distributors (when they used to be used,) and even clutch & pressure plates for the manual shift cars, alternators, starters, & water pumps.
These things wear out, or need regular replacement.
Now,, many of these things aren't necessary anymore due to improved designs. Manual shifting is mostly gone in regular transporting vehicles. Distributors are gone. and even the transmission fluid & filter changes seem to be lasting longer.
And as noted above,, it used to be a Dealership was used mostly for more serious repairs, or by those who have very little mechanical abilities.
We also had many small business shops of mechanics all over the country that could do many of the same things a dealership could do,, yet often a bit cheaper.
But to put it simply,, PROFIT is a driving factor in all businesses.
Dealerships hate the independent shops. So they require "Certified Technicians" to assure a warranty.
Then the manufacturers (bean counters driven by the amount of stock they own,) demand things be designed as cheaply as possible,, to heck with maintenance, knowing that a dealership can & will get to work on stuff, allowing them to sell OEM parts. As the old saying goes,, "one hand washes the other." And when people have too many problems,, they sell or trade & buy a new vehicle.
I've said for decades that anything that requires maintenance, should be worked on by the designers for at least 2 years before they are allowed to work on actual designs. Even the dealerships hate to work on many things. But they know they will get to charge a LOT to do the work.
Now, add in the "new" gizmos that people think they have to have in a vehicle,, OR the ones required by the laws. Much of the new stuff is not as necessary as they make it out to be.
A good example; Tire pressure sensors. Have one go out,, you can be pretty sure that if you replace one,, all the others will be in need. The sensors cost $30-$75 each. Then you have to have a tire shop install them. PLUS,,,, they need to be "calibrated" with each other for the vehicle. Another expense. All because somebody thought we needed an idiot light & warning buzzer to tell us we had a low tire.
And don't get me started on the cameras on cars now. I know a guy who's been a Mercedes expert for decades. Yet,, he retired,, saying he was GLAD he was retiring due to the increased number of the cameras & how much of a PIA they were to work on.
I've made a comment on auto engineers here before. I got some heat for what I said, so I won't repeat it.
But I will say it's not just auto engineers,, it's in ALL businesses. Sadly, vehicles have so many things in them that need maintenance or repairs,, they they should be the leader in preventing such problems or expenses,, but instead, they promote it.
Why? PROFITS!!!!!!!!!
Oil changes, headlights, brakes, transmission fluid & filter changes, battery, air filters, spark plugs & wires, distributors (when they used to be used,) and even clutch & pressure plates for the manual shift cars, alternators, starters, & water pumps.
These things wear out, or need regular replacement.
Now,, many of these things aren't necessary anymore due to improved designs. Manual shifting is mostly gone in regular transporting vehicles. Distributors are gone. and even the transmission fluid & filter changes seem to be lasting longer.
And as noted above,, it used to be a Dealership was used mostly for more serious repairs, or by those who have very little mechanical abilities.
We also had many small business shops of mechanics all over the country that could do many of the same things a dealership could do,, yet often a bit cheaper.
But to put it simply,, PROFIT is a driving factor in all businesses.
Dealerships hate the independent shops. So they require "Certified Technicians" to assure a warranty.
Then the manufacturers (bean counters driven by the amount of stock they own,) demand things be designed as cheaply as possible,, to heck with maintenance, knowing that a dealership can & will get to work on stuff, allowing them to sell OEM parts. As the old saying goes,, "one hand washes the other." And when people have too many problems,, they sell or trade & buy a new vehicle.
I've said for decades that anything that requires maintenance, should be worked on by the designers for at least 2 years before they are allowed to work on actual designs. Even the dealerships hate to work on many things. But they know they will get to charge a LOT to do the work.
Now, add in the "new" gizmos that people think they have to have in a vehicle,, OR the ones required by the laws. Much of the new stuff is not as necessary as they make it out to be.
A good example; Tire pressure sensors. Have one go out,, you can be pretty sure that if you replace one,, all the others will be in need. The sensors cost $30-$75 each. Then you have to have a tire shop install them. PLUS,,,, they need to be "calibrated" with each other for the vehicle. Another expense. All because somebody thought we needed an idiot light & warning buzzer to tell us we had a low tire.
And don't get me started on the cameras on cars now. I know a guy who's been a Mercedes expert for decades. Yet,, he retired,, saying he was GLAD he was retiring due to the increased number of the cameras & how much of a PIA they were to work on.
I've made a comment on auto engineers here before. I got some heat for what I said, so I won't repeat it.
But I will say it's not just auto engineers,, it's in ALL businesses. Sadly, vehicles have so many things in them that need maintenance or repairs,, they they should be the leader in preventing such problems or expenses,, but instead, they promote it.
Why? PROFITS!!!!!!!!!
And yet, a funny thing happens to a business that doesn't make a profit. Tits up.
gjgalligan
Single-Sixer
I worked GM for almost 43 yrs, with the last 20 or so at the Tech Center in Warren, Michigan. I was skilled trades for most of that time and worked with & around many engineers.
My personal opinion is they are too busy thinking the technical stuff and kinda blind to the common or simple stuff. They seem, in many cases, develop tunnel vision on their assigned project and don't see the surrounding side of the project.
My personal opinion is they are too busy thinking the technical stuff and kinda blind to the common or simple stuff. They seem, in many cases, develop tunnel vision on their assigned project and don't see the surrounding side of the project.
GasGuzzler
Hunter
Someone always seems to come along in these types of topics and claim the manufacturer does this for profit. Those posters ignore the fact the dealers are separate from the manufacturers, the dealer techs lose money on idiotic designs, and the carmakers care ZERO if the franchise dealers make money but I digress...
Most of the stupid designs are for cost reduction (make it easier to build, forget about service), aesthetics, or governmental standards.
I have replaced bulbs (actually called ignitors on some Xenon lamps) on Cadillacs that cost over $1K installed.
Most of the stupid designs are for cost reduction (make it easier to build, forget about service), aesthetics, or governmental standards.
I have replaced bulbs (actually called ignitors on some Xenon lamps) on Cadillacs that cost over $1K installed.
GasGuzzler
Hunter
Wrong. Manufacturers make nothing on sales or service. They make money in the stock market. They don't own the dealerships. The dealerships are franchises. The dealers make most of their profit in sales because service pays the bills to operate. I am speaking of net. Sure, fixed ops gross profit is good, usually better than sales. But sales has no cost, cost is absorbed by fixed ops. On paper, fixed ops doesn't do all that well since the gross is whacked by 45-55%.
YES! And what they pay the dealer for warranty work is about 60% of what retail is. Ever wonder why some things are hard to get covered under warranty? It's usually because the dealer doesn't want to take it in the shorts by the factory and what they pay.
Incorrect. Once again we see the false assumption the carmaker gives two craps about the people that work at a franchise not owned by the manufacturer ... they do not. They care ZERO how difficult a certain job is or the serviceability of any of their products. If a vehicle takes a special tool for a certain job, the car company sends it to the dealer with a bill, no options for the franchise. This includes tools in the FIVE digit price range. Remember that the next time you wonder why stuff costs so much.
Snap-On makes a scanner that does just about everything an OEM one will. It's $25K for the whole kit.
Yep...maybe I saw you on a VCT ...
gjgalligan
Single-Sixer
What is a "VCT"?
My personal experience is very different from GasGuzzler's observations. I've audited the books of dealerships, and reviewed others in connection with their purchases by bigger auto groups (e.g., the Van Tuyl Auto Group - with over 75 dealerships - which, in turn, was later (2015) bought out by Warren Buffet). In all cases:
1. New car sales departments' profits were rarely enough to cover the salesmen's costs and related sales department costs. The dealerships "hoped" to break even on new car sales, and generate their real profits from those new cars' finance and warranty services. By way of example, the long-time (75+ years in business) Chevy dealership in Canton, TX (east of Dallas) 70 years ago fired their entire sales force. All sales were negotiated by the dealership's owner, and more recently the general manager - voila! No selling cost at all. This dealership passed along to its customers MSRP discounts that other dealerships could not/would not match. This dealership was THE place for East Texas' farmers to purchase their new pickups.
2. Used car sales departments were generally profitable but relied on market conditions and the used car sales departments' success at making "smart" purchases of used car inventory.
3. Service departments provided a steady profit stream. New car warranty revenues (which are paid for by the auto makers) generally covered the service department's costs, and "non-warranty" services provided the profit.
4. Finance departments generally were very profitable, both with new car sales and used car sales. [The advent of on-line auto financing really bit into dealership finance departments' profits.]
So...anyone else who has truly "audited" the books of dealerships can speak up with their own experiences.
1. New car sales departments' profits were rarely enough to cover the salesmen's costs and related sales department costs. The dealerships "hoped" to break even on new car sales, and generate their real profits from those new cars' finance and warranty services. By way of example, the long-time (75+ years in business) Chevy dealership in Canton, TX (east of Dallas) 70 years ago fired their entire sales force. All sales were negotiated by the dealership's owner, and more recently the general manager - voila! No selling cost at all. This dealership passed along to its customers MSRP discounts that other dealerships could not/would not match. This dealership was THE place for East Texas' farmers to purchase their new pickups.
2. Used car sales departments were generally profitable but relied on market conditions and the used car sales departments' success at making "smart" purchases of used car inventory.
3. Service departments provided a steady profit stream. New car warranty revenues (which are paid for by the auto makers) generally covered the service department's costs, and "non-warranty" services provided the profit.
4. Finance departments generally were very profitable, both with new car sales and used car sales. [The advent of on-line auto financing really bit into dealership finance departments' profits.]
So...anyone else who has truly "audited" the books of dealerships can speak up with their own experiences.
On a Ford it is Variable Cam Timing. A solenoid moves the cam to change how the lobes affect valves.
- Joined
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- Messages
- 2,123
In my world it's Video Conference Training or video chat training.
Ain't acronyms great?
GasGuzzler
Hunter
Virtual Classroom Training
My comments regarding typical operation do not necessarily apply to corporate conglomerates such as Van Tuyle. I have never nor ever will I work for one of those. It is laughable to think any store gets by on what warranty pays. If customer pay work was 100% profit I would have retired before my ripe old age of 48.
