updated post Blackhawk Head Space and End Shake pictures..

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steelheadnw

Bearcat
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Feb 2, 2008
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montana
Does any one know what the head space and cylinder end shake should spec on a Blackhawk? And how to measure them correctly? Second question, does any one have a suggestion for a gunsmith to install a cylinder bushing (permanent) and fit it to the revolver ?

Thanks,
james

November 8 update

Ok, I suppose I should Let you know what I was up to with all this.. I have an OM 45, the barrel slugs .454, the cylinder was .4525.. I puchased another 45, an early NM "shooter" the barrel slugs .452, and the cylinder throats were .455.. Can you see where I'm going obviously the cylinders were switched at birth. I throw the NM cylinder in the OM, and it needed some fitting to get into the frame, and ended up with a generous .012 cylinder gap.. putting the OM cylinder in the NM I had a ton of Endshake, and the cylinder gap was almost acceptable at .008.. The project is beyond my garage gunsmith scope. So I took it in to the local guy.. We talked about it for a while came up with a solution and he went to work on it. He put in a Colt style bushing after reaming out the cylinder, end shake is now undetectable, and the barrel was set back to .003.. The first few groups are promising, no leading, I'm very happy with the work.. Now he is working on the OM setting the barrel back..


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james
 

texaswheelgunner

Single-Sixer
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Messages
182
Location
Schertz, Texas USA
I'm going to quote from Kuhnhausen's book, "The Ruger Single Action Revolvers." Just the fact that you are asking these types of questions tells me that you should have this book. You really ought to have it since this one topic is covered in great detail in the book.

On page 130 of that book, he states, "....shell head clearance is defined as the space remaining between a chambered cartridge head and the breech face. Traditional minimum shell head clearance spcification is .006." ........But it is a meaningless measurement if your endplay is excessive."

I hope that answers your question about headspace.

Additionally, Kuhnhausen says ideally, you shouldn't have any or just a very minimal amount of cylinder end play. All of my Rugers have maybe a couple of thousanths of end play however.

Any pistolsmith in the American Pistolsmiths' Guild will be able to install the bushing you are inquiring about. Just to name a few, there is Alex Hamilton, Gary Reeder, Hamilton Bowen, Jim Stroh, Harton.....
 

steelheadnw

Bearcat
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montana
Texas wheel gunner, yes, I do need to get the book, Midway finally has it back in stock.. Thanks for the response, I may just end up having a smith sort it out for me, but I still will probably get the book.

james
 

Cholo

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texaswheelgunner, I've been searching my computer for where I saved that book info and bingo, you gave the name today. Already ordered. Thanks!

Seems like a must have for any of us who love Ruger SA's...and anybody contemplating buying a new one just to clean it out and put it together like it should have been in the 1st place :wink:

Master Pistolsmith Cholo! Kinda has a ring to it, don't ya think? Don't go shootin' with Cholo or you might just see the 1st ever fully automatic Ruger SA. Oops! :shock: It's only a flesh wound. I can fix your foot as good as new for a nominal fee...
 

texaswheelgunner

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Schertz, Texas USA
Cholo and Stealhead, yes, these Rugers are really fine SA's. But seems like guys who really take them seriously (like us) always find they need some tweaking, upgrading, or cusomizing here and there. I like Colt SA's but I think I like my Ruger SA's (Old Models or New Models) even better. They're just stout as hell.

Jerry's book is an invaluable aid for us as we need good referances for things we think need attention.

Good luck to you guys and good shooting.
 

flatgate

Hawkeye
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Star Valley, WY
Ron Power's makes the "bushing" you need.

Click Here

Chucking up the cylinder in a "screw machine" is all that's needed to do the job. Along with the proper "tool" to remove the old "bushing".

flatgate
 

DGW1949

Hunter
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flatgate":1r1lr4j3 said:
Ron Power's makes the "bushing" you need.

Click Here

Chucking up the cylinder in a "screw machine" is all that's needed to do the job. Along with the proper "tool" to remove the old "bushing".

flatgate


Ron Powers is a perty-sharp guy, and that is a very interesting "bushing".

Just from looking, I'm guessing that the hole it goes into should be fitted in such a manner as to provide a slip fit for the part...otherwise, if the bushing is to be pressed in, the shim kit would be a "one time shot". Or it could be done vice-versa, and the OD behind the shoulder fitted to the hole......
Either way though, you can bet that any machine work done will have to be spot-on...or at least within .0005 of center....and EXACTLY plumb...or the pin AINT going through the cylinder when we're done.

Not saying there is anything wrong with Ron's part, because there aint. In fact, it is much nicer than the comparatively crude bushings that I've made for my own use. AND....I realy like his shoulder-design that allows for shiming.
What I am saying though, is that installing any sort of aftermarket bushing into a Ruger SA cylinder is a fairly touchy job....certainly not something that I'd trust to just any ole shop.....or to a run of the mill "back room" gunsmith.

I realize that you some other Forum members knows all this already. I just posted my thoughts on the matter, on account of them that don't...and might have the impression that this sort of thing can be done on their kitchen table, or with a "Harbor Freight" type drill press.

No disrespect intended to anyone.

DGW
 

steelheadnw

Bearcat
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montana
I was gonna use my re-chargable and ace drill bit collection that's missin the 3/8's, and some of the other little ones, and not on the kitchen table but out on the picnic table cause the wife dont like me workin on the guns in the kitchen.
thanks for all the advice..
Hopefully that got a smile. off to the smith it goes.. I'll report back with results..
james
 

texaswheelgunner

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Messages
182
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Schertz, Texas USA
steelhead, you've a great sense of humor. No doubt, some would-be pistolsmiths have tried it just like you were joking about.

Anyhow, yes, please let us know who you take it to and ultimately how pleased you are with the work. I may need to get this done to a couple of mine too.
 

flatgate

Hawkeye
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Messages
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A cushioned (brass shim stock) 3 jaw chuck and a "tail stock" fitted with a drill chuck would do the trick.

A collet that holds a cylinder would be deluxe... :roll:

flatgate
 

texaswheelgunner

Single-Sixer
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Messages
182
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Schertz, Texas USA
steelhead, thanks for posting the update. It is sure nice to have a knowledgable 'smith close by.

I've not seen a Colt bushing installed in a Ruger cylinder before but then....there's a just a lot of other stuff I've not seen either. Looks like you got the result you needed on the NM.

Those .455" throats sound excessive for a Ruger. I wonder if they came from the factory like that? That's about what I have in my S&W Model 25-2's. You might have to find some .454" bullets for it.

Let us know how the OM turns out (with pictures). Very interesting projects for sure.
 

steelheadnw

Bearcat
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Feb 2, 2008
Messages
67
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montana
Texaswheelgunner, I ordered some 255 gr. .454 dia cast from Dardas Cast and ran them through my OM before it went to the smith, even with the large cylinder gap groups were in the 1.5" range at 25 yds. I didn't shoot a lot of groups and it was insanely windy at the range. It didn't lead and seems like the accuracy potential is there. Was the .455 throat factory? Not real sure. The guy that had the gun before me did a home trigger job on it and messed the timing up pretty bad, but fortunately didn't shoot it much and this was easily fixed with a properly fitted pawl. So back to the question about the 455 throats, I'd guess they were factory but don't know for sure.

james
 

texaswheelgunner

Single-Sixer
Joined
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Messages
182
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Schertz, Texas USA
Dardas Cast? Do they do Internet Sales? I'll do a search and see if I can find them. I need some .454 bullets for my S&W's.

Sounds like you're on the right track and your OM will do fine once you get her up and runnin.'
 

steelheadnw

Bearcat
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
67
Location
montana
Dardas cast is out of Michigan, I haven't shot a lot of the bulllets I have gotten from them. You can look over at Marlin owners under industry partners for some reports. they look to be a good quality cast bullet, the .454's miked at .454, my .430's were more toward .429 and I haven't had a chance to shoot them yet, and I'm not sure what hardness they are, someone said in the 20 BHN scale. But I can not find that info on the website They are $20 cheaper a box than oregon trail bullets and appear to be of comparable quality.

http://www.dardascastbullets.com/

The sizing menu pops up after you select a bullet. With flat rate shipping $10 for up to 70 lbs to your front door, I like that, especially here in Montana.

James
 

DGW1949

Hunter
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
3,910
Location
Texas
steelheadnw":227a7xy5 said:
Does any one know what the head space and cylinder end shake should spec on a Blackhawk? And how to measure them correctly? Second question, does any one have a suggestion for a gunsmith to install a cylinder bushing (permanent) and fit it to the revolver ?

Thanks,
james

November 8 update

Ok, I suppose I should Let you know what I was up to with all this.. I have an OM 45, the barrel slugs .454, the cylinder was .4525.. I puchased another 45, an early NM "shooter" the barrel slugs .452, and the cylinder throats were .455.. Can you see where I'm going obviously the cylinders were switched at birth. I throw the NM cylinder in the OM, and it needed some fitting to get into the frame, and ended up with a generous .012 cylinder gap.. putting the OM cylinder in the NM I had a ton of Endshake, and the cylinder gap was almost acceptable at .008.. The project is beyond my garage gunsmith scope. So I took it in to the local guy.. We talked about it for a while came up with a solution and he went to work on it. He put in a Colt style bushing after reaming out the cylinder, end shake is now undetectable, and the barrel was set back to .003.. The first few groups are promising, no leading, I'm very happy with the work.. Now he is working on the OM setting the barrel back..


IMG_0002Large.jpg

IMG_0003Large.jpg

IMG_0004Large.jpg

IMG_0005Large.jpg


james


Hello James,

That is the nicest end-shake "fix" that I've ever seen done on a Ruger SA, and from looking at the targets you posted...that gun can shoot.

Congrats to both you AND your gunsmith!

DGW
 

steelheadnw

Bearcat
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
67
Location
montana
Thanks DGW, I am happy with the work, My Smith also suggest an over sized cylinder bolt, but it already shoots better than I am capable without a sandbag rest.. But the part is only $17... Hmmmm
 

flatgate

Hawkeye
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Jun 18, 2001
Messages
6,784
Location
Star Valley, WY
The oversized cylinder latch can be a good thing. Just make certain it does NOT rotate the cylinder a wee bit and screw up chamber to barrel alignment.

flatgate
 
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