OVERLOADDED
Single-Sixer
Agreed, overloaddedgrobin said:
Theoretical 22LR question
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OVERLOADDED
Single-Sixer
Ok, click, thumb back hammer 2nd round ready. Semi auto click, now use off hand to cycle slide next round ready, which required more time? OverloaddedRandyP said:
If you use the average distance of a armed SD encounter of 3 yds. Recocking a SA revolver or racking the slide of a semi auto (or if doing it correctly, tap, rack, shoot) at a BG who is trying to kill you, MOST will loose the fight with either gun. Either by being overpowered or shot even if the 1st shot by the citizen hit the BG.
Lets get real here. With a modern gun (DA, SA, or semi auto) everyone pretty much carries a round chambered-under the hammer-and the gun cocked. (Note if you have a striker fired pistol e.g. Glock, that's the only way to have a round chambered... well except for some weird types with a decocker!, and those aren't really suitable unless you don't use or disable the decocker!)
So reality is BG is at 3 yd, so you draw aim and pull the trigger. Experienced LEO will stage the gun unobtrusively by their leg and not need to draw. In most SD cases you see the problem comming way before 3 yd.
So reality is BG is at 3 yd, so you draw aim and pull the trigger. Experienced LEO will stage the gun unobtrusively by their leg and not need to draw. In most SD cases you see the problem comming way before 3 yd.
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
CraigC said:
Hi,
Craig, do you know if there's another chart which covers "just plain silly?" Cuz that's what it looks like the whole thread's become (with apologies to Monty Python.)
Rick C
Grobin, become a officer somewhere and see what the facts about SD shootings are and how fast and close encounters are when most signs of a deadly force situation happens. Watch some of the real life police shows, see how fast a attack happens. If they still show that stuff, I do not watch any of it, haven't for years. That old COPS show beginning police radio calls they play, 1 is a voice of a female co worker who was gunned down a few years later. BTW, She had her gun in her holster when killed.
And you have been or are associated with any LEO or ES anywhere when? I was with ES for 17 years and active as a park service officer for 3 summers. Most LEO/ES shootings occur on traffic stops followed by drug related.
Yes a lot of officer attacks are ambush or from behind but far from all.
Yes a lot of officer attacks are ambush or from behind but far from all.
Yes from 1981 to present. I listed my background on my introduction several years ago. I do not feel the need to list any of my life on my signature.
But, lets stick with this topic and my history, firearms range master/instructor at an SO 2 years. 6 years at another dept. firearms instructor, range master training service sidearms, shotguns and rifles until I had a promotion. The new job did not allow for the time to teach shooting any longer. It was a 4 weeks a year job, each quarter training about 120 officers, normally 5 straight days adding up to over a 50 hour week most times. Than annual ranger master school was another 4 or 5 days a year. When I went to recruit school to teach new cops than add another 2 to 4 weeks, depending how many other instructors were available. I never investigated a dept. shooting we have Dicks do that. But, I, we got copies of many of our dept and other dept. reports. The damage done by different calibers and bullets on the human body by the autopsies and a few I seen on the streets. We asked co workers to video tape there statements after all the investigation was done to help others and learn how to be better trained and reacting to deadly force. Some did others would not discuss it. Studied police shooting as much as possible to develop better training consisting of real life police shootings. Most PDs put together training videos and some have the real event shown, most do reenactments. Those get sent all around the country so other cops can learn also. Mostly never any of those are available to the public.
I do not have all the answers, as no one does. But, sometimes patterns develop. No 2 police or citizen shooting is actually the same. 3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 yards is or has been a national average that can vary year to year, but over time it is about the national police shooting average. Used to be less rounds when most had revolvers, I remember the number was 2.4 or 2.7 for years. Does not really matter that has changed anyway.
Think about this, police shootings normally happen as the police contact the BG. And at real close range. Range that one would normally talk to another person, maybe standing at the car window, handing documents to another person, handcuffing someone or during a hands on fight with someone and a gun gets introduced into the fight, either with the police officers own gun taken by the BG or a BG with a gun.
Many citizen shootings happen when BG approaches his possible next victim of a crime. No nation wide data on citizen average distance, rounds fired etc. I have read about a city, maybe St. louis had someone keep that type of data. The numbers are very limited and I chose not to attempt to remember that so much because the area and total numbers of shooting compared to police nation wide data.
Watch the video posted on this site of a foot chase by police and a by stranger stepped into it and shoots at the police. See the distance and time that whole gun battle happened. The unusual part of that shooting was the BG shooter placed himself into the fight unrelated to the police foot chase. The rest of the shooting fits many of the police shootings patterns. Yes there are police ambushes done with distance and a rifle but, most are fast, close and quick. Many times unexpected. As an example,
40 years ago here we trained service gun range shooting starting at 50 yards prone than 25 yards kneeling and standing. Half of the course shots were than fired at those distances.
That changed to 25 yards with 18 rounds fired at 25 yards. Only 6 shots fired of the 50 shot course is now done at 25 yards. All other shooting is done fast and close with forced reloads and one hand and weak hand shooting involved. Much is done with gun malfunctions introduced into the course because that is the real world here in the US.
The video I mentioned was posted by GunnyGene on 07-04 in the gun control heading. Watch it several times.
So take away what you want or not. We could look at many times that rule of 3 did not fit but remember that is a average. Some gun battles took 1 round at 15 yards, some took 17 at 5 yards, perhaps.
But, lets stick with this topic and my history, firearms range master/instructor at an SO 2 years. 6 years at another dept. firearms instructor, range master training service sidearms, shotguns and rifles until I had a promotion. The new job did not allow for the time to teach shooting any longer. It was a 4 weeks a year job, each quarter training about 120 officers, normally 5 straight days adding up to over a 50 hour week most times. Than annual ranger master school was another 4 or 5 days a year. When I went to recruit school to teach new cops than add another 2 to 4 weeks, depending how many other instructors were available. I never investigated a dept. shooting we have Dicks do that. But, I, we got copies of many of our dept and other dept. reports. The damage done by different calibers and bullets on the human body by the autopsies and a few I seen on the streets. We asked co workers to video tape there statements after all the investigation was done to help others and learn how to be better trained and reacting to deadly force. Some did others would not discuss it. Studied police shooting as much as possible to develop better training consisting of real life police shootings. Most PDs put together training videos and some have the real event shown, most do reenactments. Those get sent all around the country so other cops can learn also. Mostly never any of those are available to the public.
I do not have all the answers, as no one does. But, sometimes patterns develop. No 2 police or citizen shooting is actually the same. 3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 yards is or has been a national average that can vary year to year, but over time it is about the national police shooting average. Used to be less rounds when most had revolvers, I remember the number was 2.4 or 2.7 for years. Does not really matter that has changed anyway.
Think about this, police shootings normally happen as the police contact the BG. And at real close range. Range that one would normally talk to another person, maybe standing at the car window, handing documents to another person, handcuffing someone or during a hands on fight with someone and a gun gets introduced into the fight, either with the police officers own gun taken by the BG or a BG with a gun.
Many citizen shootings happen when BG approaches his possible next victim of a crime. No nation wide data on citizen average distance, rounds fired etc. I have read about a city, maybe St. louis had someone keep that type of data. The numbers are very limited and I chose not to attempt to remember that so much because the area and total numbers of shooting compared to police nation wide data.
Watch the video posted on this site of a foot chase by police and a by stranger stepped into it and shoots at the police. See the distance and time that whole gun battle happened. The unusual part of that shooting was the BG shooter placed himself into the fight unrelated to the police foot chase. The rest of the shooting fits many of the police shootings patterns. Yes there are police ambushes done with distance and a rifle but, most are fast, close and quick. Many times unexpected. As an example,
40 years ago here we trained service gun range shooting starting at 50 yards prone than 25 yards kneeling and standing. Half of the course shots were than fired at those distances.
That changed to 25 yards with 18 rounds fired at 25 yards. Only 6 shots fired of the 50 shot course is now done at 25 yards. All other shooting is done fast and close with forced reloads and one hand and weak hand shooting involved. Much is done with gun malfunctions introduced into the course because that is the real world here in the US.
The video I mentioned was posted by GunnyGene on 07-04 in the gun control heading. Watch it several times.
So take away what you want or not. We could look at many times that rule of 3 did not fit but remember that is a average. Some gun battles took 1 round at 15 yards, some took 17 at 5 yards, perhaps.
Yep, when I was an LEO, I carried an TP-22 when deep concealment was needed. CCCI MINIMAGS rock! I also used to carry my Ruger Markll as a woods gun, and a .38 snub, then .357 mag Security Six, then a GP-100, I morphed through a bunch of calibers. Now I carry .44 spcl in a Bulldog. I have NEVER felt undergunned. Sometimes ignorance is bliss? Or confidence keeps a person from being an victim!Aqualung said:
gramps
Highhawk1948
Single-Sixer
CCI solid points
Well according to real world accounts mostly a
holler or single shot sufices. But that's only a bit over half the time-although it's likely that most of these instances don't get reported. After all why bother with LEO or Rangers when you don't have to?
It's the others that are the problem.
holler or single shot sufices. But that's only a bit over half the time-although it's likely that most of these instances don't get reported. After all why bother with LEO or Rangers when you don't have to?
It's the others that are the problem.
Well I think we agree having a firearm and knowing how to use it is a big plus when confronted with a self defense situation or deadly encounter.
You really should watch the video, I mentioned.
You really should watch the video, I mentioned.
It all boils down to a 22 is not a good choice for self defense! Period!
Piss and moan all you like that is fact! ps
Piss and moan all you like that is fact! ps
If you don't practice any gun is as good as any other; if you practice a 22 (needs more practice) is not as good against a determined assailant (big critter, vest, druggy) but will do 90% of the time.
The prejudice against the 22 is as groundless as the prejudice against the 9mm after the FBI screw up (lack of practice and 'stopping power ' myth) caused CYA! If you don't hit it in an effective place it doesn't matter. Yes there is stopping power, thermobaric weapons, and tactical nukes are examples!
The prejudice against the 22 is as groundless as the prejudice against the 9mm after the FBI screw up (lack of practice and 'stopping power ' myth) caused CYA! If you don't hit it in an effective place it doesn't matter. Yes there is stopping power, thermobaric weapons, and tactical nukes are examples!
Flyover_Country
Bearcat
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2018
- Messages
- 62
grobin said:
Yes, a miss is a miss no matter what you are shooting.
A .22 has limited efficacy, it works decently on small game like rabbits and squirrels with a good chest shot but anything much larger than that requires a brain shot or it's not a quick, clean kill even with a good double-lung shot. Shoot a raccoon, possum, or armadillo with a .22 LR with a standard 40 grain lead round-nose bullet in the chest and double-lung it, and yes, it will expire, but it's a long process. A larger round or a shotgun works far better. A 9 mm shoots a bullet about three times heavier at the same velocity and is much more effective than a .22, ditto a shotgun shooting 10-15 times as much payload at the same speed.
So what!? Same old BS. A head shot is not necessarily the best-shot on the critter. On a human a shot to the throat (lyrnax) is generally better than a head shot!
Outside of some weapons that are just plain silly there is no STOPING POWER.
As for the double-lung shot, if I blow a critters leg off tearing the carotid it takes around two minutes to die if I do it with a 22 or a 50BMG.
Outside of some weapons that are just plain silly there is no STOPING POWER.
As for the double-lung shot, if I blow a critters leg off tearing the carotid it takes around two minutes to die if I do it with a 22 or a 50BMG.
grobin, from now on you shall be called by your spirit name--Dead Horse :mrgreen:
I wonder if we have convinced the OP from 7 pages ago that he needs to just leave his BearCat at home, or heck, go ahead and sell it. No need to carry a self defense device that is more beneficial to the BG than nothing at all.
A few of you guys here have just about got me believing, since I carry a 22 on occasion, those days I need to just leave it at the house, and if faced with a SD situation just lay down and take my medicine and hope the BG won't kill me any deader. I mean, after all I'm not making him mad.
Wait, I know I'll carry the John Ross 500. Just pulling the trigger on that thing will drop him in his tracks. I guess if a 124 grn 9mm is so much better than the lowly 22, then a 1/2 inch diameter chunk of lead has got to be a whole lot better.
Sarcasm aside, I think I'll keep a RN 40 grain CCI load in my 22 when I do carry it and hope I never need it. Maybe BG will have a 22 also, since a 22 is like a mosquito bite we can ride the same ambulance to the ER to get our bandaids.
A few of you guys here have just about got me believing, since I carry a 22 on occasion, those days I need to just leave it at the house, and if faced with a SD situation just lay down and take my medicine and hope the BG won't kill me any deader. I mean, after all I'm not making him mad.
Wait, I know I'll carry the John Ross 500. Just pulling the trigger on that thing will drop him in his tracks. I guess if a 124 grn 9mm is so much better than the lowly 22, then a 1/2 inch diameter chunk of lead has got to be a whole lot better.
Sarcasm aside, I think I'll keep a RN 40 grain CCI load in my 22 when I do carry it and hope I never need it. Maybe BG will have a 22 also, since a 22 is like a mosquito bite we can ride the same ambulance to the ER to get our bandaids.
Flyover_Country
Bearcat
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2018
- Messages
- 62
lolbell said:
Any weapon is better than no weapon, but some weapons are clearly better for some intended uses than others. If you have a choice in what to carry, it is obvious to choose the most effective weapon for the situation. For example, few would recommend carrying a baseball bat as a dedicated self-defense weapon, but if you are unarmed and get carjacked, and your kid's baseball bat in the in the footwell next to you, absolutely pick it up and whack the sucker with it. However, if you have a .357 on your hip, you would be silly to pick up the bat instead of the .357.
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
Flyover_Country said:
Philosophically true. But (there's always a "but" isn't there), DaLaw always limits our choices (to a greater or lesser degree) to our dismay. And by limiting our choices, we are put at a serious disadvantage. There are millions of walking, talking GFZ's in this country, and we see the results of that daily.
