The gunslinger effect

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RRM

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In your case,, by what you've shared, (I do not know all the details,) instead of confronting the druggie,, you should have called 911, and retreated into your home, instead of allowing yourself be baited into drawing your gun. You became the aggressor by what you said.
You come live in the methhead and homeless infested world I was in then you judge. The police admitted they were allowing the homeless to make an encampment on public property next to our county library right behind my house. My wife was incessantly harassed by these people who constantly trespassed. All this while the cops did NOTHING. Did you see their response time with a weapon involved? It's a joke to be an honest citizen man.

The mandated PTI "anger mgt" intake person said he would flat have shot the guy. He also determined I didn't need anger mgt ($45 later).

Keep practicing your reflexes though! May come in handy in the showers!
 

RRM

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I was physically attacked and knocked down by an assailant and he was screaming at me for trespassing, I was retrieving my dog. I fell on my artificial hip and had trouble getting up. He stood over me the entire time. I pulled my gun to prevent another attack. He ran into the house and called the police, with whom he had connections.

DA told my lawyer she did not believe in CC, I refused to admit I was the aggressor. Went to court. Convicted, appealed and won. Pleaded quity to breech of peace, my wife could not take another trial.

Thanks for sharing your story. NO one who has not been in these situations can appreciate it. The criminals know how to work the system, just like your assailant. And plenty of lily livered folks in the system are more than happy to oblige them. No law guarantees you will prevail. I had "stand your ground" (no duty to retreat) on my side (remember Trayvon?), but you can not rely on that.

After they inflict plenty of hurt on you they'll often drop it to some BS charge to plea you out--just like they do with the real criminals. Folks you are treated NO differently than a career criminal. I'd never been charged with anything in my life when that happened. It took 3 pages to print my aggressor's rap sheet for just our county. Law enforcement DOES NOT CARE about your "rights".
 
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JackBull

Bearcat
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Dec 3, 2021
Messages
38
Thanks for sharing your story. NO one who has not been in these situations can appreciate it. The criminals know how to work the system, just like your assailant. And plenty lily livered folks in the system are more than happy to oblige them. No law guarantees you will prevail. I had "stand your ground" on my side (remember Trayvon?), but you can not rely on that.

After they inflict plenty of hurt on you they'll often drop it to some BS charge to plea you out--just like they do with the real criminals. Folks you are treated NO differently than a career criminal. I'd never been charged with anything in my life when that happened. It took 3 pages to print my aggressor's rap sheet for just our county. Law enforcement DOES NOT CARE about your "rights".
I agree 100%! The prosecuter even tried to prove that I acted first because I did not cuss at my attacker while he was unloading a barrage of bad language at me.
 

RRM

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I agree 100%! The prosecuter even tried to prove that I acted first because I did not cuss at my attacker while he was unloading a barrage of bad language at me.

My wife said she was shocked at how fast my trespass warning went to homophobic slurs from this guy. I returned in kind, but this guy was tweaked and spoiling for a fight.

I spoke with someone who got charged with an aggravating factor in Hawaii. He shot an aggressor in his home with a SA revolver. Prosecutor claimed having to cock gun showed it was malice.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE UP AGAINST FOLKS!!! Ignore at your peril!
 
Joined
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Greenville, SC: USA
The goal is not to win a civil suit or criminal trial … the goal is to never become a defendant.
Actually, the first goal is to live to tell about it and if need be defend your actions... the alternative is pointless.

In expanding on what Contender said.... I think the reaction time is because your brain/nerves are bypassing a part of the brain that analyzed and responds. I know there are many times while driving that I can't even remember the last couple of minutes .... my body and some part of my brain is just doing it with out any conscious thought.
 
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Adding a bit to my above post. This morning I had my swim practice session with Sue who is the retired U of M professor I've know forever and dragged me into their lab years ago when we were dating, still calls when they want a guinea pig for something. She was a D1 swimmer back in collage and is helping me in my triathlon attempt. About the last 10 years or so she's gotten away from the muscle side of things and focused on research to help stroke or brain injury patients. Basically she says if you want to be good in a old western movie style gunfight to practice a LOT and be under 30 years old with good genetics.....basically just like any other physical sport. Anybody can make themselves faster with practice to a point..... then you've got what you've got and WILL slow as you age. As for people competing, she suggesting doing all your practice with whatever type of shot timer beep used in competition and whatever hearing protection, glasses and headgear you usually wear. Dress however you do competing. Really focus on initiating movement at the beep then worry about hitting something later. Thinking unless somebody has been a long time competitor doing serious practice they ought to be able to pick up .1 to .2 seconds on the start alone.
Thought a training setup would start the clock at the same time the beep started and a contact switch where the gun grip was to stop it, basically work at driving your gun hand from the surrender position to the gun are fast as possible. Also just random thinking that a beep that was hard to hear and shorter in time would teach the brain/ears to listen better, want to fire the muscles at the first hint of sound. She knows basically nothing about shooting but is plenty smart about human performance and optimization of it.
She pointed out with perfect sense that my visual reaction to the light was faster because hockey, motocross and cars were all visual driven sports, my body and brain were conditioned for years to that.
The people with track and swimming backgrounds who were trained to react to starting guns were almost all quicker to sounds than visual stimulus in that study, didn't surprise her at all.
She offered to have some grad students set it up again if I wanted to see how much slower and weaker I am 15 years later...no thanks!
 

beentheredone

Bearcat
Joined
Mar 27, 2022
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SC
I believe it was Wyatt Earp who said that the secret of winning a gunfight is to, "Take your time, quickly."
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
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Lake Lure NC USA
"You come live in the methhead and homeless infested world I was in then you judge. The police admitted they were allowing the homeless to make an encampment on public property next to our county library right behind my house. My wife was incessantly harassed by these people who constantly trespassed. All this while the cops did NOTHING. Did you see their response time with a weapon involved? It's a joke to be an honest citizen man.

The mandated PTI "anger mgt" intake person said he would flat have shot the guy. He also determined I didn't need anger mgt ($45 later).

Keep practicing your reflexes though! May come in handy in the showers!"

You act as if I was attacking you RRM.
I was not.
I was pointing out a different point of view. Your point of view doesn't seem to allow for any other viewpoint.
You may live in a bad place. You may have harder laws to follow. You may have anti-gun judicial people. You may have several things that influence your point of view.
But I also have my point of view.
I also have LEO's in my family as well as several as friends. I also associate with lawyers & a few judges.
And in my area,, we respect law-abiding people. And for the most part,, the LEO's around here recognize the problem people, and they also understand when a law-abiding person tries to stop something.
BUT,, NC law concerning self defense AND the use of deadly force is also clear in that you can not be the aggressor.
By your post,, and what you stated, you were the aggressor when you brandished your gun.
As the school yard saying goes; "Sticks & stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."
Words. Nothing more. If you have enough control to let words NOT affect you, then the thugs will either give up, or they will escalate things to where they become the aggressor.
I've had Drill Instructors get in my face, and call me names, call my mother names, call all my relatives names. Say the ugliest things imaginable. Yet,, I did not let it bother me.
It's done to GET a response, and usually they WANT a violent type of response.

We, as law-abiding gun owners NEED to show the anti's we are NOT the crazies etc by resorting to violence at the least amount of provocation. All that does is fuel their fire to take away our rights.
Owning a firearm comes with responsibility, and that responsibility should always include as much retreat as possible to avoid a conflict. It's not cowardice,, it's intelligence.

Your comment; "It's a joke to be an honest citizen man" is an insult to many of the fine folks on this forum.
There are MANY, MANY honest citizens here, and we support law-abiding actions.

RRM,,, you are new here. And you are very welcome here. But this Forum has always tried to be very open, polite & respectful of everyone. That is, until they show disrespect, or verbally attack other members.
Now,, I'm NOT accusing you of anything,, but your words point to a little disrespect for the law-abiding people here.

Yes,, your living in a bad neighborhood can affect your views, actions & such.
And we have a town nearby, (Asheville NC) that is a cesspool of the very type of people you described. Homeless, trespassers, drug abusers, etc. And as such, the city leaders & city DA & all are very liberal, very anti-police, very soft on such crimes etc. That is why we have such a cesspool in Asheville. AND,, due to such attitudes in that town,, the conservative, law-abiding have moved out of the areas where that stuff is allowed. The city police dept has suffered a 40%-45% loss of cops who've left. Problems abound.
But that still doesn't legally excuse a person from being the aggressor with a firearm.
Now,, I have always chosen to NOT live in a place with such problems. Even when I was in the Army, and chose to live off post,, many of the areas that I could afford were crime ridden & bad places. I CHOSE to work harder at finding a better place to live,, because I did not want to find myself in any kind of potential trouble, just because of where I lived.

I'm proud to be an honest citizen. I also know that I can, only if necessary, use my skills to protect myself or my family. I'm a Vet, and my youngest is a LEO. I know the laws, and I CHOOSE to abide by them. I also know, that if I'm forced to use my firearm, it'd be the last resort. I'll not brandish a firearm without expecting to have to use it. I'll have one at the ready, and I'll also accept that if I do use it, I'll be within my legal rights to do so. It may cost me money, and a trip through the legal system. But, I'll prevail, because I have already proven my restraint, and my ability to avoid an armed conflict unless absolutely necessary.
Brandishing, threatening etc with a firearm is NOT the avenue to take. ESPECIALLY with the thugs who already know the insides & outsides of "the system" and how to get out of things.

In short, I do NOT have to worry about my "shower time."

But I will POLITELY ask that you show a bit more respect for the honest citizens here on this Forum please!
 

Mobuck

Hawkeye
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Messages
7,118
Location
missouri
My comment about 'having my gun in my hand' was wildly exaggerated and misconstrued as meaning I would be waving the gun around like some TV actor.
First off, I live in a very rural area where carrying a firearm is quite common. Secondly, I carry crossdraw usually with some sort of cover garment meaning with a very innocuous crossing of my arms, my hand has a shooting grip on my pistol or drawn w/o being visible. Finally, I'm a somewhat frail appearing geezer who can easily justify 'being afraid for my safety' if braced by anyone younger, bigger, or stronger (which is darned near everyone).
 

Snake Pleskin

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Mar 26, 2022
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Aiken, South Carolina
Thanks to a slow computer, I wasn't able to get the link opened easily.

But,, I can add to a bit of the discussion by the members here. I'm a firearms instructor, and a USPSA competitor & Range officer.
The comment;
"The theory is flawed. It doesn't take into account training and muscle memory."

Training, as discussed above is an excellent way to develop skills that may allow a person to be faster, smoother, & more likely to be the first one to draw a firearm.
But I always talk about "motor memory skill" which is mistakenly called "muscle memory."
Muscles do not react w/o the brain telling them what to do.
Motor memory skills are a conditioned learned action or reaction by the brain. Just like doing anything daily or often enough in repetition to where the brain develops a response without the conscious thought to do so.
Just like driving a vehicle.
Do it often enough & you do not independently think about all the little steps you take to drive a vehicle. Things like; Unlocking the door, opening the door, sitting down, putting your foot on the brake, inserting the key, turning the key, placing you hand on the steering wheel, putting the vehicle in gear, turning the wheel in the direction needed, moving your foot from the brake to the gas & back when needed, turning the wheel to direct the vehicle, and when confronted with a sudden, unexpected action in front of you, hitting the brake and/or turning the steering wheel away from it.
None of us are born with motor memory skills to do anything,, but we learn them by repetition. The brain can tell us what to do quicker than we can consciously think about each & every step.
In shooting, by practicing a draw, stance, sight acquisition, grip, trigger control, recoil management & follow through, we can become faster & faster the more we practice these skills by training our brain to accept the motor memory necessary to do these things.

Just like Dave P.'s comments about his participation in the studies.

But it's not muscle memory, it's motor memory skills.

Blume357 has mentioned his many hours of training. Excellent. And yet,, he can attest to how fast I am vs his own skills, as he's videoed it. And I'm NOT a super fast shooter. Blume's skills are very good. But I have over 20 years of shooting practice by being a USPSA competitor.
In that game, you will spend a lot of time doing all the skills necessary to be a faster AND more accurate shooter.

RRM is right about the average whack job not being that fast or good either,, but will most likely already have their gun in a "ready" condition.

But there have been a few cases of where known competitors who do have good motor memory skills were confronted by a thug, and they came out on top, quickly.

And IDPA competition has CCW draws, so that skill can be easily practiced as well.

"in a lot of instances, "real world" conditions are not conducive to matching up with practice."
This comment,, I can say is both true & false. Many real world conditions can easily be duplicated in practice. In USPSA,, we are challenged at every match with different scenarios that require a draw, accurate shooting, movement, reloading, deciding which actions to take when, & overall, a mental challenge as well as physical ones. ALL of this takes place "on the clock" which places a certain amount of stress factor upon your skills. This alone is an excellent skill to develop better motor memory.
But there is no way to totally practice every possible scenario that might take place in the real world. That's why practicing a competition game such as USPSA or IDPA can be a big help in developing motor memory skills that might save your life.

"I fully intend to have my gun in my hand if/when I need it. Needing to perform a 'quick draw' means my observation skills failed."

This quote, has a lot of truth in it. Observation skills are a MUST to be able to be as prepared as possible. As noted by KIR, "Lesson #6."

My Karate Master taught us our best weapon was our legs,, run like hell.
By being observant,, we can avoid MANY, MANY situations where things might go bad.

And;
"Just be prepared to be charged with agg assault with a firearm and improper display of a weapon, regardless what your side of the story is.
Have a criminal atty and bondsman lined up, and a cash stash to pay those persons when needed."

I can personally disagree with that statement.

I've had the occasion to be in a position where I had my firearm out, in a non-threatening manner, and the police were called. And the guy who prompted this action was the one who called the police. He did so as I extracted my wife & myself from his vicinity, and moved well away from everything.
When the police arrived, they were calm, not overly concerned, (stopped to politely talk to customers in the restaurant, even when I motioned for them to see me.) When they came to me,, they were calm, polite, & never once gave us any disagreeable feelings. I never had to stand up, be frisked, or anything. I had informed them I had my gun on my body, and they said; "Yeah, we know."

My ability to be aware of my surroundings, allowed me to be proactive, and prepared when the potential thug made a move. When he tried to get into my wifes car, with her there,, I was parked beside her, and had my door partially open, yelling at him to get away from her. I did NOT see a weapon in the thug's hands, so I didn't point my gun at him. When he did back away, he saw my gun and commented; "Oh, you got a gun! I'm calling the police!" (This was just before I was going to strike him with my truck door to get him away from my wife.)

Not every case of brandishing a firearm will result in charges.

But back to the original discussion.

Motor memory skills can be developed to make a person quicker in his draw & shooting. It's done by proper practice, in many various scenarios, that require it.
If you had been with two different officers the results could have been vey different and not pleasant(IMHO) I have had simial encounters and my experience is, the Police come and take everyone, and sort it out later!
 

Snake Pleskin

Buckeye
Joined
Mar 26, 2022
Messages
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Location
Aiken, South Carolina
Thanks for sharing your story. NO one who has not been in these situations can appreciate it. The criminals know how to work the system, just like your assailant. And plenty of lily livered folks in the system are more than happy to oblige them. No law guarantees you will prevail. I had "stand your ground" (no duty to retreat) on my side (remember Trayvon?), but you can not rely on that.

After they inflict plenty of hurt on you they'll often drop it to some BS charge to plea you out--just like they do with the real criminals. Folks you are treated NO differently than a career criminal. I'd never been charged with anything in my life when that happened. It took 3 pages to print my aggressor's rap sheet for just our county. Law enforcement DOES NOT CARE about your "rights".
Correct. Law enforcement is NOT on your side. They do not care who is right or wrong, its not part of their job. They lock everyone up and let the atty's and court figure it out. YOU will be treated as a criminal, count on it!
 

RRM

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jun 12, 2022
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NWFL
By your post,, and what you stated, you were the aggressor when you brandished your gun.

But that still doesn't legally excuse a person from being the aggressor with a firearm.

Much as the prosecutor I encountered, you sir are assuming "facts not in evidence". This tweaked out methhead was verbally threatening and then began making "pocket checks" and advancing on me. He was verbally warned several times and I finally put my hand on my clearly visible weapon (open carry) and gave him a final "fear for my life" warning. Again, he advanced after ALL these warnings. He was given multiple chances to simply leave before I finally drew BECAUSE I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY LIFE!

For God's sake, this guy was threatening me at my home.

The court mandated anger mgt intake person, after hearing the FACTS said: "I would have shot that guy".

But, thanks for you non supportive diatribe which was not grounded in the facts.
 

Snake Pleskin

Buckeye
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Mar 26, 2022
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Aiken, South Carolina
Much as the prosecutor I encountered, you sir are assuming "facts not in evidence". This tweaked out methhead was verbally threatening and then began making "pocket checks" and advancing on me. He was verbally warned several times and I finally put my hand on my clearly visible weapon (open carry) and gave him a final "fear for my life" warning. Again, he advanced after ALL these warnings. He was given multiple chances to simply leave before I finally drew BECAUSE I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY LIFE!

For God's sake, this guy was threatening me at my home.

The court mandated anger mgt intake person, after hearing the FACTS said: "I would have shot that guy".

But, thanks for you non supportive diatribe which was not grounded in the facts.
I understand how you feel, and can commiserate. I have been in court on both sides, and it is never fair, never about right & wrong, and they never treat you as the "good" guy. It is about the letter of the law and winning! The prosecutor does not get points for losing and he/she is going to make you the problem, the bad guy and do everything in their power to convince the court you are wrong! last time I was in court I was there because I defended a woman whose car was being stolen, the perpetrator was literally beating the crap out of her when I showed up and then turned on me. We went at it. fast forward, he had a record a mile long and ended up getting 10 yrs!, but not until I had been to court a half dozen time's, was made to look like the aggressor, bad guy, what ever! Luckily my wife was their and could testify, and other people had gathered and caught the perp as he tried to run away and held him for Police. Lesson learned. I do not help anymore. Sad, but it is not worth it to me going through the ordeal.
 
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RRM

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Lesson learned. I do not help anymore. Sad, but it is not worth it to me going through the ordeal.

Yes, there's no medal waiting for you. Rather, you get a lot of pain and suffering. Had I not been defending my wife (and her basic right to be out in OUR yard), I wouldn't likely get involved (for someone else). Prosecutors virtually never totally drop a case. You just get pled to something lesser. My intake with anger mgt lasted less than 5 minutes. He told me you don't get the charges I started with and get pled down to, basically, a "loud argument" if there was anything to the state's case. After he got all the facts, he said "well, I would have shot him". My attorney deposed the guy and said he was scared of him at the deposition. He agreed with me the guy likely would have killed me under different circumstances.

What the armchair commentators don't get is EVERYTHING will be used against you. You participated in speed and accuracy competitions for 20 years? You were spoiling for a fight then, sir! And, your ingrained motor reflex compelled you to pull the trigger on the draw!!
 

contender

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Lake Lure NC USA
RRM, you must have missed the part of my posts that said I was basing my comments upon YOUR posted information.
You just added a lot more to the action where you were arrested & such.
You were right,, I did not have all the facts,, AND I CLEARLY STATED THAT.
In fact, in my previous posts, if you re-read them I made that comment twice.

And again, as I stated, I do not know all the facts, therefore I only reply based upon your posted information.

That aside.

You still posted that being an honest citizen was a joke, insulting the honest citizens here.

And Snake has made some excellent points, and a few comments I can expound upon.
"It is about the letter of the law" is exactly what I was discussing. By the original information posted, it appeared by your comments that you acted as an aggressor.
In court,, it is about the letter of the law & emotions are never a good defense.

Next; "Law enforcement is NOT on your side. They do not care who is right or wrong, its not part of their job. They lock everyone up and let the atty's and court figure it out."
Pretty much true.
However,,a LEO has a certain amount of discretion on the street & also knows that if he has a potential problem, let both sides present their sides to attorney's & the legal system.
But, they also know that they will have to spend a lot of time in court,, often during days they should be "off" or whatever. Every time they have to go to court, they lose time where they too would prefer to be elsewhere. So, they can & sometimes do look at things on the street, knowing that if they try taking it to court will be a waste of time AND money (for the County or State,)
So, they can often see who's the real problem, and if nobody was hurt, or the potential for repercussions isn't there for NOT arresting someone, they can & will make street decisions to where nobody goes to jail or whatever.

Just like in my case where the thug tried to get into my wifes car, and ignored (4) very loud commands to get away from her. It was when he turned around to look at me, that he saw my firearm. I had my door partially open, and was about to use it to knock him away, when he chose to back away, after seeing my gun.
When the LEO's arrived, my wife was interviewed by a female deputy, and I was interviewed by a male deputy. Separately. My wife related how she was suddenly placed in a position of fear, and didn't know what the guy was doing, or trying to do. (And she was digging for her gun once she realized he was trying to get into her car.)
I informed the LEO's that I'd seen this guy appear from the bushes, go straight between our vehicles, & try to get into my wife's car, on the driver's side. I allowed I'd pulled my gun out of it's holster, holding it at low ready close to my crotch, and that I'd been on the phone, dropped it, opened my door partially. I told them about basically screaming at the thug to get away from her, and had brought my gun up to the center of my chest, still pointing downward, as I did this.
The LEO's had already talked to this guy, and said; "Well, he said he THOUGHT it was his wife's car he was getting into, and "couldn't see very well."
I was totally calm & polite to the LEO's and asked; "If he can't see very well, why was he trying to get into the drivers side? Also, what about his hearing,, I was screaming at him to get away?" The LEO's said he was just "confused."
In my case,, nobody was hurt, nobody was arrested, and the LEO's knew that if they were to go to the trouble to arrest me, that I would also file charges against the thug, and that in the end, they would spend a lot of time with the courts & such, while knowing I'd get the charges dropped fairly easily.
They do have a certain amount of discretion on the street to decide to charge someone or not.

I participate in competition for the fun, the ability to keep my shooting skills good, and NOT, repeat NOT to be used in an armed confrontation unless absolutely necessary.

By all this discussion, which has strayed from what the OP started,, I feel that no matter what else either of us say, it will be pointless.

All I'll say is that I still feel you (RRM) owes the Honest citizens here an apology and to respect their views on being honest.

I'll make no other comments.
 

Snake Pleskin

Buckeye
Joined
Mar 26, 2022
Messages
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Aiken, South Carolina
RRM, you must have missed the part of my posts that said I was basing my comments upon YOUR posted information.
You just added a lot more to the action where you were arrested & such.
You were right,, I did not have all the facts,, AND I CLEARLY STATED THAT.
In fact, in my previous posts, if you re-read them I made that comment twice.

And again, as I stated, I do not know all the facts, therefore I only reply based upon your posted information.

That aside.

You still posted that being an honest citizen was a joke, insulting the honest citizens here.

And Snake has made some excellent points, and a few comments I can expound upon.
"It is about the letter of the law" is exactly what I was discussing. By the original information posted, it appeared by your comments that you acted as an aggressor.
In court,, it is about the letter of the law & emotions are never a good defense.

Next; "Law enforcement is NOT on your side. They do not care who is right or wrong, its not part of their job. They lock everyone up and let the atty's and court figure it out."
Pretty much true.
However,,a LEO has a certain amount of discretion on the street & also knows that if he has a potential problem, let both sides present their sides to attorney's & the legal system.
But, they also know that they will have to spend a lot of time in court,, often during days they should be "off" or whatever. Every time they have to go to court, they lose time where they too would prefer to be elsewhere. So, they can & sometimes do look at things on the street, knowing that if they try taking it to court will be a waste of time AND money (for the County or State,)
So, they can often see who's the real problem, and if nobody was hurt, or the potential for repercussions isn't there for NOT arresting someone, they can & will make street decisions to where nobody goes to jail or whatever.

Just like in my case where the thug tried to get into my wifes car, and ignored (4) very loud commands to get away from her. It was when he turned around to look at me, that he saw my firearm. I had my door partially open, and was about to use it to knock him away, when he chose to back away, after seeing my gun.
When the LEO's arrived, my wife was interviewed by a female deputy, and I was interviewed by a male deputy. Separately. My wife related how she was suddenly placed in a position of fear, and didn't know what the guy was doing, or trying to do. (And she was digging for her gun once she realized he was trying to get into her car.)
I informed the LEO's that I'd seen this guy appear from the bushes, go straight between our vehicles, & try to get into my wife's car, on the driver's side. I allowed I'd pulled my gun out of it's holster, holding it at low ready close to my crotch, and that I'd been on the phone, dropped it, opened my door partially. I told them about basically screaming at the thug to get away from her, and had brought my gun up to the center of my chest, still pointing downward, as I did this.
The LEO's had already talked to this guy, and said; "Well, he said he THOUGHT it was his wife's car he was getting into, and "couldn't see very well."
I was totally calm & polite to the LEO's and asked; "If he can't see very well, why was he trying to get into the drivers side? Also, what about his hearing,, I was screaming at him to get away?" The LEO's said he was just "confused."
In my case,, nobody was hurt, nobody was arrested, and the LEO's knew that if they were to go to the trouble to arrest me, that I would also file charges against the thug, and that in the end, they would spend a lot of time with the courts & such, while knowing I'd get the charges dropped fairly easily.
They do have a certain amount of discretion on the street to decide to charge someone or not.

I participate in competition for the fun, the ability to keep my shooting skills good, and NOT, repeat NOT to be used in an armed confrontation unless absolutely necessary.

By all this discussion, which has strayed from what the OP started,, I feel that no matter what else either of us say, it will be pointless.

All I'll say is that I still feel you (RRM) owes the Honest citizens here an apology and to respect their views on being honest.

I'll make no other comments.
I'm not certain RRM was rally putting down the "honest" citizen. I think what he was trying to say, and i also think is true, is that the "honest" citizen is sometimes made into the "dishonest" citizen, the criminal, the bad guy, by our legal system and some times it seems foolish for the "honest" citizen to place your trust in a system with so may flaws in it. You point out that Police have a certain level of discretion and that they do not want too waste their time going to court etc. What you are sayin to me is, it is not worth the cops time to take the side of the "honest" citizen and see that they are not screwed by the system? Also, you have family LEO, and that makes a big difference. Whether it should or not is a totally different discussion, but reality is, it makes a difference good or bad.(IMHO)
 

Snake Pleskin

Buckeye
Joined
Mar 26, 2022
Messages
1,465
Location
Aiken, South Carolina
RRM, you must have missed the part of my posts that said I was basing my comments upon YOUR posted information.
You just added a lot more to the action where you were arrested & such.
You were right,, I did not have all the facts,, AND I CLEARLY STATED THAT.
In fact, in my previous posts, if you re-read them I made that comment twice.

And again, as I stated, I do not know all the facts, therefore I only reply based upon your posted information.

That aside.

You still posted that being an honest citizen was a joke, insulting the honest citizens here.

And Snake has made some excellent points, and a few comments I can expound upon.
"It is about the letter of the law" is exactly what I was discussing. By the original information posted, it appeared by your comments that you acted as an aggressor.
In court,, it is about the letter of the law & emotions are never a good defense.

Next; "Law enforcement is NOT on your side. They do not care who is right or wrong, its not part of their job. They lock everyone up and let the atty's and court figure it out."
Pretty much true.
However,,a LEO has a certain amount of discretion on the street & also knows that if he has a potential problem, let both sides present their sides to attorney's & the legal system.
But, they also know that they will have to spend a lot of time in court,, often during days they should be "off" or whatever. Every time they have to go to court, they lose time where they too would prefer to be elsewhere. So, they can & sometimes do look at things on the street, knowing that if they try taking it to court will be a waste of time AND money (for the County or State,)
So, they can often see who's the real problem, and if nobody was hurt, or the potential for repercussions isn't there for NOT arresting someone, they can & will make street decisions to where nobody goes to jail or whatever.

Just like in my case where the thug tried to get into my wifes car, and ignored (4) very loud commands to get away from her. It was when he turned around to look at me, that he saw my firearm. I had my door partially open, and was about to use it to knock him away, when he chose to back away, after seeing my gun.
When the LEO's arrived, my wife was interviewed by a female deputy, and I was interviewed by a male deputy. Separately. My wife related how she was suddenly placed in a position of fear, and didn't know what the guy was doing, or trying to do. (And she was digging for her gun once she realized he was trying to get into her car.)
I informed the LEO's that I'd seen this guy appear from the bushes, go straight between our vehicles, & try to get into my wife's car, on the driver's side. I allowed I'd pulled my gun out of it's holster, holding it at low ready close to my crotch, and that I'd been on the phone, dropped it, opened my door partially. I told them about basically screaming at the thug to get away from her, and had brought my gun up to the center of my chest, still pointing downward, as I did this.
The LEO's had already talked to this guy, and said; "Well, he said he THOUGHT it was his wife's car he was getting into, and "couldn't see very well."
I was totally calm & polite to the LEO's and asked; "If he can't see very well, why was he trying to get into the drivers side? Also, what about his hearing,, I was screaming at him to get away?" The LEO's said he was just "confused."
In my case,, nobody was hurt, nobody was arrested, and the LEO's knew that if they were to go to the trouble to arrest me, that I would also file charges against the thug, and that in the end, they would spend a lot of time with the courts & such, while knowing I'd get the charges dropped fairly easily.
They do have a certain amount of discretion on the street to decide to charge someone or not.

I participate in competition for the fun, the ability to keep my shooting skills good, and NOT, repeat NOT to be used in an armed confrontation unless absolutely necessary.

By all this discussion, which has strayed from what the OP started,, I feel that no matter what else either of us say, it will be pointless.

All I'll say is that I still feel you (RRM) owes the Honest citizens here an apology and to respect their views on being honest.

I'll make no other comments.
your comments are as good as anyone else's comments(IMHO)
 

badguybuster

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
361
Location
West (by GOD) Virginia
During my years as a LEO I practiced my draw for 30 minutes before every shift. Its been 10 years since I wore the badge and the muscle memory has stuck even though I only practice once or twice a week. I had an instructor tell me that I only needed to practice on the days I wanted to live.
 
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kmoore

Buckeye
Joined
Mar 29, 2017
Messages
1,080
Location
Idaho
I never have met a co worker who hated to go to court, it's easy money and just part of the job. If it's to be held on days during vacation or training they get reset. When I worked in traffic, I had court dates set only on my days off. OT earned on everyone. Working nights all court (criminal and traffic) was also on OT. Twist my arm and pay me OT to sit around waiting to tell my side.
 

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