Strange SA Transfer Bar Conversion Question

[grobin]

caryc thanks for the well thought out reply.
If I'm on uncertain ground I engage the hammer thong which means that the hammer is down on a loaded cylinder. The hammer thong is as close to a retention feature as is available on the revolver holster I use.

If I get jumped in thick brush having the revolver cocked may just save me. If a bear gets a hold of the revolver it doesn't matter if he shoots me, himself or a bystander, I'm already in too deep.

Firing too soon is a big problem no matter what kind of gun you have or how you carry. I've run a lot of train fire and combat courses and it's a common problem. Practice and training are the only cure, and that's not a sure thing. Recently an Alaska guide got jumped by a Griz. He had a 7 shot Sig and managed to get 6 shots in the bear, he had one left. OTOH a deputy that I used to work with was a race gun champ. He got attacked attempting to break up a bar fight and emptied a 15 round magazine without hitting his attacker.

 

[Clovishound]

If I get jumped in thick brush having the revolver cocked may just save me.

I wouldn't trade the dubious advantage of a fraction of a second between SA and DA in the possible situation of a quick bear attack vs the day in and day out possibility of shooting yourself or someone else because you are carrying in what is commonly regarded as a dangerous condition.

If my hunting buddy insisted on carrying a revolver cocked, I would insist on not hunting with him.

It is your decision how to carry, but this is generally considered to be unsafe.

 

[Snake45]

If I get jumped in thick brush having the revolver cocked may just save me.

Please tell us the name of anyone who's ever been "jumped in thick brush" (whatever that means)--or on city streets, for that matter--and survived and claimed that the most important factor in his (or her) survival was having a cocked revolver in his holster. Just one name.

We'll wait for you here. :roll:

 

[grobin]

Try the account of a guide who got jumped by a Grizzley. Should still be up at Buffalo Bore web site. He had SIG 9mm with 7 rounds. Carrying it normally, cocked with a round in the chamber. He killed the Griz and had 1 round left. If you can use Google I'm sure that there are others.

 

[Fox Mike]

Try the account of a guide who got jumped by a Grizzley. Should still be up at Buffalo Bore web site. He had SIG 9mm with 7 rounds. Carrying it normally, cocked with a round in the chamber. He killed the Griz and had 1 round left. If you can use Google I'm sure that there are others.

By all means you continue to carry a cocked revolver. On that day that you shoot your foot or leg, and hopefully no one near you, please get back to us with a 'stitch count'. The greater majority here know that it is not a way to travel. In the time it takes to un-holster a revolver you can also cock it. . . safely.

 

[NikA]

If you're talking about this story:
https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/10/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

You should check your facts. Guide was carrying a DAO hammer fired semi-auto pistol, which would basically be equivalent to carrying a DA revolver with the hammer down.

 

[caryc]

Try the account of a guide who got jumped by a Grizzley. Should still be up at Buffalo Bore web site. He had SIG 9mm with 7 rounds. Carrying it normally, cocked with a round in the chamber. He killed the Griz and had 1 round left. If you can use Google I'm sure that there are others.

By all means you continue to carry a cocked revolver. On that day that you shoot your foot or leg, and hopefully no one near you, please get back to us with a 'stitch count'. The greater majority here know that it is not a way to travel. In the time it takes to un-holster a revolver you can also cock it. . . safely.

Exactly...in fast draw, using a thumb cocking draw, the thumb pushing back and up on the hammer is helping you get the gun out of the holster. You don't have to be a fast draw artist to do the same thing with your single actions.

 

[Snake45]

Try the account of a guide who got jumped by a Grizzley. Should still be up at Buffalo Bore web site. He had SIG 9mm with 7 rounds. Carrying it normally, cocked with a round in the chamber. He killed the Griz and had 1 round left. If you can use Google I'm sure that there are others.

A SIG 9mm is NOT a revolver. Apparently your reading comprehension skills are as weak as your reasoning ability. :roll:

 

[Hondo44]

The "passive safety" on S&Ws is the ramped interface between the top of the rebound slide and the bottom of the hammer. The hammer's not going to hit the firing pin unless the trigger is held back. They also have a sliding safety thingie rattling around in there which is completely redundant. "Back in the day" we used to take those things out, but Mas Ayoob convinced me that removing or altering any "safety device" on a gun that might be used defensively is a bad idea, no matter how silly or useless the thing is.

Snake,

Mas Ayoob should know better.

Actually the rebound slide/hammer foot safety only kicks the hammer/firing back off of the primer. It alone has failed many times because a dropped revolver will often shear the hammer pivot pin and the gun will fire.

That's the reason S&W designed three different style hammer block safeties to work in conjunction with the rebound slide/hammer foot safety, beginning in 1915. The second style was prone to sticking in a dirty gun. Therefore only the rebound slide was left functioning in a 38 M&P Victory Model resulting in the death of a sailor in WW II when the gun dropped and the hammer pin sheared. The final solution is the post war sliding bar hammer block you describe.

Neither the rebound slide or sliding bar are foolproof by themselves, only when they work together. The sliding bar will not slip between the hammer and frame w/o the 'kickback' of the rebound slide, and the kickback of the hammer alone has the failure reality described above.

Very interesting, and I'd never heard any of the stories of hammer pins shearing, but it does sound possible with the results you describe.

But nothing in your post contradicts anything Mas knows, said, or told me. All I said was that he has stated that removing or altering a safety device is a bad idea. (The "no matter how silly or useless" part was all me, and I didn't intend to imply that he said that, though I now see how it could be read that way.) :wink:

No didn't mean anything against Mas, I'm a fan. I'm sure he knows about the S&W safeties but just warned about the liability issue.

 

[David Bradshaw]

"I realize that this is a revolver form and the folks must be forgiven for their ignorance of modern pistols."
----grobin

*****

While members of the forum strive to right this derailed train, let us consider the definition of a passive safety. A passive safety engages as the trigger is released and lockwork returns to the rest position. A passive safety de-activates as the trigger is squeezed. A passive safety is not manually engaged.

The system is designed to prevent firing until the trigger is squeezed. Modern Smith & Wesson revolvers exemplify the concept, and it will be a long time before another design exceeds S&W's track record in the field. I consider the Ruger transfer bar system the equal of the S&W, and trust my life to both, but haven't the experience to proclaim one better than the other.

No revolver of my acquaintance is meant to be carried or holstered cocked. As for speed afield, to hunt whitetail deer by tracking is bound to test your speed from the leather. Which means----unless you stalk with gun in hand at all times----slow holsters are out. One of the first lessons learned: there is time to cock in the sweep between leather and eye. After alertness on the the track, a smooth draw becomes a matter of skill and familiarity. To shoot a running deer double action is not faster----yet is riskier----than to leade your sight picture on a sixgun cocked on the way up.

Aside from the outrageous hazard of trying to holster a cocked revolver, let alone carry it cocked, the precaution required to draw such an arrangement without shooting yourself surely slows down the draw!

Note on auto pistols
a) The passive safety found on post-modern automatics does not prevent discharge when the trigger is pulled. Which means----unless the trigger finger is outside the trigger guard----to thrust the gun into a holster will fire it.
b) Not all passive safeties are equal. The variety found on post-modern autoloaders shows some more shock resistant than others. None have had the field exposure found on the best double action revolvers and Ruger New Model single actions.
David Bradshaw

 

[Sugar River]

You guys DO realize you're arguing with some kid typing in his parents' basement, whose complete knowledge of firearms consists of what he can find with google?????

 

[Snake45]

You guys DO realize you're arguing with some kid typing in his parents' basement, whose complete knowledge of firearms consists of what he can find with google?????

If that's true, he has a bad Google. He needs to get a new one. :roll: