SR9, Full Auto Doesn't only Happen to Jennings

[waynejitsu]

waterwolf, I know what you are saying.
I have been around a LOT of guns and have seen a LOT of different failures.

I don't know why, when someone hears "full auto", they ASSUME it "has to" completely empty a magazine.
Auto means just that, auto, ANYWHERE from emptying a magazine to 2 rounds (one trigger pull, 2 shots), the second shot was AUTO.

I think a lot has to do with people only relying on their own experience and there are those without as much as others, so..., if it didn't happen to them, it didn't happen at all, LOL!!!

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Waterwolf, you know you posted this info minus the video nine months ago, I guess I question why you find it necessary to post it again.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtop ... ht=#581017

If you had it with your SR9, fine, I can understand that but to drag on your issues seems to make it an agenda.
I know you didn't think someone wouldn't call you on this after comparing an SR9 to a Jennings.

 

[snakespit]

Well any way you cut it there was some thing wrong with that gun.

Cheez that looked like 3 or 4 rounds of full auto to me.

 

[Texasgunner]

I just always wonder how anyone would (or could) "just happen" to be videoing himself just shooting any gun & have something like that happen :roll:
Kind of why i dont watch Funniest Home Videos :shock:

All he needed was to have the recoil of his gun to cause it to hit him in the nuts to be complete

Texas (i've been wrong before) Gunner

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I just always wonder how anyone would (or could) "just happen" to be videoing himself just shooting any gun & have something like that happen :roll:
Kind of why i dont watch Funniest Home Videos :shock:

All he needed was to have the recoil of his gun to cause it to hit him in the nuts to be complete

Texas (i've been wrong before) Gunner

Now, that is damn funny.

As I have said, it is easy to get an SR9 to shoot multiples also Glocks, most 1911's and just about any other semi-auto with a short reset.

 

[waterwolf]

Just for the record, I am not flaming the SR9. I have even considered the SR9C, but at this time I have enough small carry guns. The reason I did not post this video 9 months ago, is I did not want to flame the SR9 platform before the bugs were worked out. The Jennings episode got me going again. My video is crappy but you can see at least one trigger reset failure, and the speed of the shots is just not possible with a finger. I will try to post the other two videos tomorrow.

I loved the accuracy and feel of the SR9. I shot 4458 rounds through my first gun, with 35 issues, mostly trigger resets, for a failure rate of 1.70%. My second gun, shot 2705 rounds through it, with 10 issues, mostly trigger resets, for a failure of 0.37%. Mostly IDPA/IPSC with some indoor range league thrown in. My M&P pro with 7206 rounds has a failure rate of .027%.

Texasgunner - if you read the post completely, you will realize I set up the video after the main incident happened with 10-12 full auto rounds. I wanted backup to send to Ruger just in case, and I ended up needing it. I agree, it does not look that safe, but in a rest one handed, I felt confident.

Waynejitsu - thanks for the backup. You cannot hear or see very well in that crappy video. I shoot enough, and know the difference between an accidental double tap with a light trigger and full auto.

Thanks all, closed.

 

[Talegunner]

It takes ALOT for Ruger to physically replace a gun.
REV

Yeah like making a video & sending Ruger a copy........................ :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Talegunner]

I love how everyone shut up... :lol: :lol:

Conrad, I'm not going anywhere and it's hard to shut me up, you also never answered my question, how many times has your SR9 gone full auto?

Have you ever seen a pistol go full auto? I have and it empties the mag in an instant.
I also disagree with Rev about the cyclic rate of a pistol that goes full auto, the stroke on a semi-auto pistol is very short in comparision to a sub machine gun so the cyclic rate will be higher than 600-700 rounds per minute.

I'll agree about the cyclic rate..................as one who has had the privilege of shooting many class three weapons (friend who is class 3 dealer)........... Good example being that unless a specific device is installed in weapon by design or after thought the smaller the size or mass of the bolt , the faster the cycle rate................Think Mac-10 .45 VS Mac-11 .380.............When I shot the .380 most all the brass was still in mid air when the 30 round mag went dry................A hand gun is much like the .380 mac...........little mass. I found this vid of a mac .380 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USBhAzro ... re=related





Wish the .380 was as cheap now...........

 

[michael hacker]

Just today I accidentally got about 5 shots in rapid fire that I didn't intend, and did not pull the trigger 5 times super fast. But then I realized my glove caused the the gun to auto fire. It was about the same speed as the video, but iy was NOT the guns fault, it was my glove and limp wristing after a couple rapid shots due to being startled. It was a weird feeling non the less.

-Michael
www.michaelhacker.com

 

[Al James]

I loved the accuracy and feel of the SR9. I shot 4458 rounds through my first gun, with 35 issues, mostly trigger resets, for a failure rate of 1.70%. My second gun, shot 2705 rounds through it, with 10 issues, mostly trigger resets, for a failure of 0.37%. Mostly IDPA/IPSC with some indoor range league thrown in. My M&P pro with 7206 rounds has a failure rate of .027%.

Ummm, wow? I think that is meticulous record keeping! When I shoot IDPA I can hardly remember what targets to engage when the buzzer sounds. Do you have some sort of a log that you use at the range? If I had more than one failure during IDPA the gun would be gone down the road unless I could trace it back to the user or the ammo. Period. Failure % rate aside 35 failures is too many in any # of rounds under 10,000 IMO. What was the ammo that you used? I'm sure you've got it broken down by date, headstamp and lot #, bullet weight, type, etc. :lol:

 

[Texasgunner]

Ummm, wow? I think that is meticulous record keeping! When I shoot IDPA I can hardly remember what targets to engage when the buzzer sounds. Do you have some sort of a log that you use at the range? If I had more than one failure during IDPA the gun would be gone down the road unless I could trace it back to the user or the ammo. Period. Failure % rate aside 35 failures is too many in any # of rounds under 10,000 IMO. What was the ammo that you used? I'm sure you've got it broken down by date, headstamp and lot #, bullet weight, type, etc

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[WVrifleman]

They re-stamped the serial numbers on a new frame, and paperwork said "new replacement gun". It looked new.

I won't comment on anything else the OP claims, but this absolutely did not happen. The GCA of '68 is where the serialization requirement comes from and it also stipulates there be no duplicates. Meaning a manufacturer can not produce two firearms with the same serial number, even if one is destroyed.

I have a "contact" that works at the ATF office here in Martinsburg, but she can't remember exactly what Ruger's SOP is for cases like this (replacement gun & Serial number), but she said she'd look into it tomorrow when she goes to work. I'll put up her answer tomorrow evening when she gets home.

 

[waterwolf]

Rifleman - I have wondered about the replacement serial number also. But I have the paperwork and it said a new gun. The Ruger tech I spoke to said they would restamp a serial number on a new frame.

Had I to do over again, I would have marked the frame inside the magwell to verify a complete replacement.

FYI-I am not a troll trying to raise a fuss. There is also a record of some sr9s going auto at a Bass Pro Shop range. Google SR9 full auto bass pro. Even glocks have gone auto.

Let us know what your ATF contact finds out. I am curious if I got "snowed".

Texasgunner - I keep track of every round that goes through my guns, logged in a Excell data sheet. If I go to the range with 200 rounds and have 50 left, 150 shot, write it down and transfer to Excell later. Round count is plus or minus 5%. That way I know before hand which springs need changing and when and I don't have to wait for a failure to say "that spring is shot"!! Patterns develop, like trigger reset failures, and a bunch of them. And no, I don't keep track of ammo lot! I do keep track of how many +p rounds, but at ammo prices and availability, that part is easy.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

FWIW, this isn't the first time I've heard of a manufacturer replacing a gun with a new one that had the same serial number. Granted, all of those cases were based on reading it on an Internet forum, so ... But I have heard of it.

-- Sam

 

[revhigh]

I don't see what the issue would be if the destroyed gun's number was put on another frame .... one gun ... one serial number.

 

[Anonymous]

They re-stamped the serial numbers on a new frame, and paperwork said "new replacement gun". It looked new.

I won't comment on anything else the OP claims, but this absolutely did not happen. The GCA of '68 is where the serialization requirement comes from and it also stipulates there be no duplicates. Meaning a manufacturer can not produce two firearms with the same serial number, even if one is destroyed.

I have a "contact" that works at the ATF office here in Martinsburg, but she can't remember exactly what Ruger's SOP is for cases like this (replacement gun & Serial number), but she said she'd look into it tomorrow when she goes to work. I'll put up her answer tomorrow evening when she gets home.

Just watching this play out and noticed the above comment.. Well, I kinda beg to differ as Taurus just replaced a cracked frame on my gun with a new one and put the original serial number on it..! Agree that there should be no duplicates... However what choice would Ruger have if they had to replace a part that was "wearing the serial number" except to affix the new part with the original serial number?... If they 'did' replace the whole gun then a different serial number would apply!

This is just what Taurus did for me..

 

[WVrifleman]

Sorry for the late reply, she had to call Ruger directly to find out what Ruger does in cases where the entire gun needs replaced.

Directly from Ruger:

On a gun that has had work done to it Ruger puts something on the end, or near the serial number. It is not part of the serial number, it is merely an identifier to Ruger to show the gun had been previously worked on. In the past they have used a "U" or an "*". Since this wasn't the question I needed answered, it wasn't followed up with what Ruger's current SOP is.

If a gun needs replaced they absolutely do not under any circumstances re-stamp a serial number from an existing gun to a new, virgin frame. They will issue a brand new gun, with a brand new, never-been-used serial number, and ship it to an FFL of the owners choosing. They do not ship a brand new gun directly to the customer. Again, this was not followed up, regarding if Ruger shipping to an FFL is required or is just a CYA move. Cursory searching appears to indicate there is a regulation within the GCA which would prevent a manufacturer from sending a new gun directly to the customer.

Re-stamping a gun violates the GCA of '68. If Taurus, or any other manufacturer did this, they are breaking the regulations. The major manufacturers have lawyers or teams of lawyers, whose only job is to make sure the company is in compliance with Federal gun control legislation. I would wager your "original serial number" on your replacement gun has an additional mark somewhere in the serial number, maybe a -, or * or something, or they repaired your gun and sent it back to you. I strongly doubt Taurus would be unaware that issuing a duplicate serial number violates 27 C.F.R. § 478.92.

I can't think of an instance where a part of a gun would wear away the serial number as the serial numbers that matter are on the outside of the gun. Yes, I know GLOCK and other manufacturers put serial numbers other places, but it is the one on the outside of the frame that is the official serial number of record. In fact 27 C.F.R. § 478.92 requires the serial number "must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed". So a manufacturer cannot, by law, put the serial number in a place where it could be readily obliterated by a moving part.

So I'll toss the BS flag on people receiving brand new guns with previously issued serial numbers, unless of course this happened prior to 1968, in which case there were no regulations restricting the duplication of serial numbers.

To the full auto part ... if any of my non-NFA firearms did anything other than 1 round per trigger pull, I sure as heck would not post video evidence of me being in possession of an unregistered machine gun. ATF knows how to use the interwebs just as well, if not better, than we do.

For your reading pleasure:

§ 478.92 How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?

(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:

(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and

Source: Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, ATF Publication 5300.4 Revised September 2005

27 C.F.R. § 478.92

 

[Anonymous]

WVrifleman.. All that being said.. I sent a gun Taurus PT-22 to Taurus International for repair.. The frame where the serial number is affixed was cracked.. Taurus did not replace the complete gun but did change out the frame.. The new frame has my original serial number on it... Go figure..

Last year I was haveing jamming issues with a Henry AR-7. After 2 attempts to reapair by Henry, they deceided to replace the gun (long gun) and sent the replacement directly to my home. Of course the the new gun had a completely different serial number as it was a complete replacement.

I understand what you are saying about the additional numbers being added to the original serial number to prove that the gun was in for repair but what if the item (piece of the gun) is the only area where the serial number is? and if that part "alone" is replaced and not the entire gun itself ???? Should it have been marked as you say with added numbers or symbols?? If that is the case, Taurus is in the wrong.... They also returned the gun directly to my home..

Guess not every gun manufacture follows the rules..

I can also relate some serial number issues my son has expericed with Mossberg and he's in law enforcement and deals with the ATF all the time.

Again.... Go figure... Hats off to Ruger if they are following the law to the letter... and shame on the other guys.

Sorry for getting this thread off subject... I'll go back to reading. :wink:

 

[waterwolf]

WVRifelman - Awesome job on the research, and thank you. It makes perfect ATF sense to not re-issue a serial number but that is not what I was told.

My paperwork from Ruger said a "new gun" after the full auto incident (originally posted here). Did Ruger snow me? Now I am a little ticked off; new gun or not. If they just planted the guts back in the original pistol....

rifelman - Send me a PM and I will send some more detailed info incl faxes and more videos. I don't want to trash the SR9 becasuse of my issues.

I do not want to trash the SR9, I loved the weapon and shot megarounds through ti. Even with my SR9 issues, the SR9c may be coming into the stable if the trigger has been improved.