Small guns - Why accurate range barely matters?

[Enigma]

That's just one benefit of being at home; you can use whatever you want for home defense! I stick to a handgun with a light. Sixteen rounds of Hornady Critical Duty ammo should do the job, unless a squad breaks down the door. If that happens, I will fall back to my shotgun (a plain vanilla Rem 870 in 12 gauge), loaded with #4 buck. There's just me and the wife in the house, so that reduces my concerns about wall penetration. For a handgun, 9mm is as small as I will go.

 

[Johnnu2]

That's just one benefit of being at home; you can use whatever you want for home defense! I stick to a handgun with a light. Sixteen rounds of Hornady Critical Duty ammo should do the job, unless a squad breaks down the door. If that happens, I will fall back to my shotgun (a plain vanilla Rem 870 in 12 gauge), loaded with #4 buck. There's just me and the wife in the house, so that reduces my concerns about wall penetration. For a handgun, 9mm is as small as I will go.

Enigma, I've been under the impression that Critical Duty was designed for extensive penetration i.e. windshields etc. Are you in a metro area where you don't have to worry about that level of penetration (vs. using Critical Defense which is designed (?) for less penetration and more stopping power)?
J.

 

[contender]

Everybody has different ideas on what THEY prefer for home self defense. (HSD) Joe likes his ideas and they are what makes him comfortable. Others prefer something different. Thank goodness we have so many choices. (Thanks Second Amendment.)

But real life scenarios are filled with variables. As noted,, a 260 lb thug just out of prison, vs a 110 lb junkie are two different types of targets. But often,, drugs are involved in many of these criminals.
Back before WWI, we had the .38 Spl for our soldiers. The Army discovered that the Filipino fighters would chew on CoCo leaves,, ( cocaine,) for battle. They would absorb 6 rounds of .38 Spl, and keep on fighting AND KILLING soldiers before dying. And often, only after more shots were used and often with other calibers. This is WHY the Army contracted for a better self defense, hand-to-hand distance firearm.
Along came the 1911 in .45 acp.
Drugged up thugs nowadays are no different. All too often,,, unless inflicted with a very lethal mobility stopping or limiting type of injury, the thugs can still do a lot of damage or kill others before going down.
Can small calibers in smaller guns kill? Absolutely. But the variables invite a much lower probability. Besides the potential for a drug induced attack, you have stress, accuracy, (which includes bullet placement,) bullet types, among the top reasons to consider something a bit larger in caliber.
I know that we have several Veterans here. And I'm sure many of them have either been shot, or saw people shot, or have shot the enemy. And I'd also bet a few of the folks here have also experienced the same thing.
I know,, I'm in within the category of these things in a couple of places.

So, when I teach our handgun clinics to the ladies,, who are mostly there for HSD, I teach the following;
Be willing to kill someone in SD before getting a firearm.
Be willing & dedicated to proper training & regular practice with a firearm if you get one.
Get a firearm that fits YOU and a type you can comfortable operate.
Get the best you can afford, to assure you can bet your life on it.
Get the best SD ammo available for carry.
And lastly, get a caliber as big as you can handle, that has a much better chance of a one shot stopping power on a big drugged up thug.
One shot may be all you get.

 

[Dave P.]

Just to clarify, By "bathrobe gun" I just meant something very light and easy to conceal in whatever I might be wearing- in my case probably BVD briefs if you must know. Light and small for THAT waistband. Again meant as a back-up. I don't care where or what time, in a home or similar in a night time invasion checks I have learned to carry back up even then. As for your last sentence, all I can say is that it's about being trained to clear a building, not gun size.

Outside but on your own property is a different deal entirely.

I meant I was hiding in the dark hallway with an 870 while the bad guy was well illuminated in a very open area my house. I think between
the alarm noise and strobes in that part of the house and me or my wife turning the lights on over them they would be at a real disadvantage
if it came to a shooting situation.
I think small guns have a place, I carry a LCP about 60-70 percent of the time daily because it strikes a balance of size and power
that I'm satisfied with but feel I've got better choices at home. For me it's two different mindsets...out in the world it's escape the problem,
I'm still able to run and move pretty well and that's my plan, get somebody off me and get the hell out of danger and I'm OK with a small .380 for that.
At home I'm not going anywhere it's my house and I'll try to destroy what or whoever is in it uninvited. For defense against other humans at distances
under 30-40 feet I believe a 12 gauge with whatever flavor of buckshot you like is basically at the top of the list for ending a fight.

 

[GunnyGene]

I meant I was hiding in the dark hallway with an 870 while the bad guy was well illuminated in a very open area my house. I think between
the alarm noise and strobes in that part of the house and me or my wife turning the lights on over them they would be at a real disadvantage
if it came to a shooting situation.
I think small guns have a place, I carry a LCP about 60-70 percent of the time daily because it strikes a balance of size and power
that I'm satisfied with but feel I've got better choices at home. For me it's two different mindsets...out in the world it's escape the problem,
I'm still able to run and move pretty well and that's my plan, get somebody off me and get the hell out of danger and I'm OK with a small .380 for that.
At home I'm not going anywhere it's my house and I'll try to destroy what or whoever is in it uninvited. For defense against other humans at distances
under 30-40 feet I believe a 12 gauge with whatever flavor of buckshot you like is basically at the top of the list for ending a fight.

There's been a number of cases in the last couple years when the perp(s) was wearing body armor. And like guns and ammo, armor is constantly being improved, and becoming more popular. It is in fact an arms race, and we need to be in it.

Modern soft armor will stop not only 00buckshot, but also slugs and .44mag at close range. Since you likely won't know if the perp is wearing armor or not, I think it's time to move beyond the preferred ( and taught) center mass (torso) target area for that first shot whether you're using a 12 gauge or any pistol/revolver. We need up our game, and be good enough to hit something on the first shot that is not armored, and that is above and/or below the torso.

 

[Enigma]

Enigma, I've been under the impression that Critical Duty was designed for extensive penetration i.e. windshields etc. Are you in a metro area where you don't have to worry about that level of penetration (vs. using Critical Defense which is designed (?) for less penetration and more stopping power)?
J.

I actually misspoke, and meant Critical Defense! Thank you for catching it!

 

[Hvymax]

Good price on the G-force. Almost got one instead of the TS12. How's the recoil? Can you put a brake on it?

It has a little thump to it. I've seen brakes that screw in the choke threads.

 

[GunnyGene]

It has a little thump to it. I've seen brakes that screw in the choke threads.

The TS12 has a threaded barrel in addition to being threaded for chokes. The brake I bought for it came from Manticore Arms but I don't think they make one for other shotgun models. Works pretty well. If you can get your muzzle threaded to accept it, it's worth the $80.

Tavor TS12 Muzzle Brake - Manticore Arms

The TS12 Muzzle Brake replaces the existing forend retainer nut and not only gives a great new look to IWI's shotgun, but also reduces felt recoil. The more powerful the load fired, the more you will notice the recoil reduction! Simply unscrew the existing forend retainer nut, and screw on the...

manticorearms.com

 

[Hvymax]

The TS12 has a threaded barrel in addition to being threaded for chokes. The brake I bought for it came from Manticore Arms but I don't think they make one for other shotgun models. Works pretty well. If you can get your muzzle threaded to accept it, it's worth the $80.

Tavor TS12 Muzzle Brake - Manticore Arms

The TS12 Muzzle Brake replaces the existing forend retainer nut and not only gives a great new look to IWI's shotgun, but also reduces felt recoil. The more powerful the load fired, the more you will notice the recoil reduction! Simply unscrew the existing forend retainer nut, and screw on the...

manticorearms.com

I've been thinking about making a Barrett style brake for giggles.

 

[Rumrunner]

I might have missd it but didn't see mention off a flashlight on or with home defense guns. I have three light laser combos on my 9mm carbine and on my 9mm handguns. Hard for an for someone to attack or shoot at you if they are shielding their eyes with their hands. Even in the daytime inside of the house these are effective (if bright enough).
I have full size 9's a 9mm carbine and pump 12 in various places in the house. I carry a MAX-9 with a Ruger Ready Dot as mu EDC. I carry my LCP II whenever I am in the yard, the garage, or around the house.
Agreed that a doped-up linebacker most likely won't feel the pain of half a dozen 22's or 380's, but when he no longer receives oxygen to the brain due to bleeding out, it's over.
But he can still do damage until that happens unless the brain or CNS. Let's all hope we never find out!

 

[noahmercy]

Based on actual documented shootings, the three cartridges with the highest rates of "failure to stop" (regardless of where the bullet was placed and how many times the bad guy was shot) are the 25 Auto, 32 S&W, and 22LR. I have also read multiple documented cases of people being shot in the head with a 22 and surviving. In one case, the fellow was unaware his wife had shot him while he slept and only discovered he had a 22 in his noggin when X-rayed to diagnose his headache. 22s also have a habit of "skidding" around a skull under the skin, leaving only superficial wounds. As for shot placement: high stress, potential low light, and a moving aggressive target are likely to take precision marksmanship out of the equation.

Based on these facts, a rational person would choose a better cartridge than a 22 to protect himself from serious physical harm or death. I personally want a bullet with a large diameter (whether starting out that way or through the mechanism of expansion) that penetrates deeply and does catastrophic damage to blood bearing organs, major skeletal structures, or the central nervous system, since that is what stops fights when the attacker is impaired, insane, or determined.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

20 is a popular gauge for several reasons.

For shotguns generally (as HD weapons) what really counts is the ammo. A lot of folks who may buy one for that purpose don't understand the differences between the various options - slugs, buck, bird, chokes, smooth bore vs rifled, etc. - and which is suitable for HD in their particular location and home. Or that the skills and ability to use one effectively are very different than for an AR or handgun. My TS-12 for example is a complicated weapon that demands significant effort to master & at nearly 12lbs fully loaded is not for everyone. It's also expensive.

My 20 gauge Shockwave is loaded is loaded with regular #1 shot ( pellets equal around .27 cal each). For home defense I see no reason why it wouldn't stop anyone or anything at those distances and let's face it- who is going to try and hunt with Shockwave? It will always be meant as a security gun.

 

[BearBiologist]

I think the reason people say small calibers are limited in range (within the context of this discussion) isn't the caliber but the short sight radius combined with crappy sights!

 

[Hvymax]

My 20 gauge Shockwave is loaded is loaded with regular #1 shot ( pellets equal around .27 cal each). For home defense I see no reason why it wouldn't stop anyone or anything at those distances and let's face it- who is going to try and hunt with Shockwave? It will always be meant as a security gun.

I'm hurling 3" slugs with mine

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

I'm a fan of small handguns as well but I also like having some firepower when needed. The bottom 3 hold 100 rounds. 61 in AR. 33 in Glock. 6 in shotty.View attachment 30730View attachment 30731

Is the derringer on the bottom left the Bond over/under with .410 on top? If so, how is that recoil?

 

[sharpblade7777]

Is the derringer on the bottom left the Bond over/under with .410 on top? If so, how is that recoil?

This one is 45acp and the recoil is not bad at all. But I do have this one that is 410 or 45 long colt.

 

[davevabch]

I think the reason people say small calibers are limited in range (within the context of this discussion) isn't the caliber but the short sight radius combined with crappy sights!

Personally feel is is just a matter of time put into training. Watch a guy that has a lot of range time with a small 380. A lot more capable than people think, and least to 15 yds. Point and shoot skills on these small guns have a long learning curve, but once mastered they are very worthy.

PS Poor man's home defense. Took my Old Beretta 1200 semi auto which is ultra reliable and had the barrel cut down to 20" Put a Burris RD with a Meadow Brook mount. Light weight gun, easy to handle.

Beretta Pico Sights

 

[davevabch]

Small Pistol, small shotgun.
4 1/2lb shotgun with Beretta Chokes 18" barrel single shot

 

[kmoore]

Just mentioning for a few who might not think about this. SD guns carried out in public can and should be somewhat different then your HD guns. SD guns help you get out of trouble. At home your there to stay in most cases and defend. Bigger guns, bigger calibers, more ammo and backups over small, concealed guns.
Home Defense, I like the idea of a full size handgun readily available with reloads. The shotguns, rifles or carbines are close by but locked up.
I now live alone, no children, grandchildren, in a large home. Wall penetration is not on my radar, but it might be on yours. Fire power is on my radar. I can't imagine leaving the safety of my home if attacked. Maybe an exception would be the home is being burned down.

 

[SiliconSorcerer]

What is long distance (accuracy) for a SD? Im my state you shoot anyone more than 20 ft away there's a good chance your going to prison, unless they are already shooting at you. I practice two in the chest one in the head at 20 feet in 2 seconds without looking at sights end even with my eye's closed, that's the accuracy I need for a small (carry) gun .