Search for accurate load for Super Blackhawk Hunter 44 Mag

[Varminterror]

So... It'd be tight...

In general, Ruger Super Blackhawk cylinders are almost universally interchangeable - almost. I've swapped non-fluted SBH cylinders and Bisley cylinders into a few dozen (I know it's still under 60) Vaqueros, dropped vaquero fluted cylinders into Bisleys and SBH's, swapped Single Six convertible cylinders around, traded Ruger Redhawk & Super Redhawk cylinders, changed New Vaquero cylinders around too... Within a given frame size, they generally drop in with little to no modification.

In general - for $75-150 in the US, you can buy used, take-off Ruger Super Blackhawk Cylinders. If you can purchase one for less than $100, AND you can confirm cylinders are not specifically prohibited for export by ITAR or EAR, AND your home country equally has no import restrictions to prevent the purchase, you can get a new cylinder which will most likely fit on the first try. If the first one doesn't fit, sell it, buy another for the same price, only be out the price of shipping (recognizing shipping across oceans isn't free either). Alternatively, if it doesn't fit, you can have it fit by a gunsmith.

You can also ensure it WILL fit by measuring three critical dimensions before purchasing the replacement part.

So I'd just start reading up on the laws and see about getting a cylinder sent over, and not fuss with the oversized slugs at all.

 

[sasu]

My country does not limit or restrict imports but the US export regulations do. I tried ordering Sierra bullets from Germany but the shop declined citing their US export permit which allows selling them only in Germany! What idiocy! As if terrorists are ordering Ruger cylinders, Smith & Wesson barrels, Sierra and Hornady bullets etc.

I really hope that the Trump administration will put some reason into the firearms export regulations.

As to the Super Blackhawk of this thread. I have prepared more test loads but the range is closed for a few weeks around Christmas time. I have also loaded experimental cartridges for the 454 Casull Super Redhawk mentioned earlier - jacketed, cast and swaged bullets. Let us see...

As to the Freedom Arms revolvers I have already bought and am waiting for permits. The police interviewed me and said I will most probably not get the permits because I already have more than an arbitrarily determined limit of five guns per purpose. Now I need to become a collector which will take probably a year or so. What a nice world we live in, the police have the power to decide how many guns you need.

 

[David Bradshaw]

My country does not limit or restrict imports but the US export regulations do. I tried ordering Sierra bullets from Germany but the shop declined citing their US export permit which allows selling them only in Germany! What idiocy! As if terrorists are ordering Ruger cylinders, Smith & Wesson barrels, Sierra and Hornady bullets etc.

I really hope that the Trump administration will put some reason into the firearms export regulations.

As to the Super Blackhawk of this thread. I have prepared more test loads but the range is closed for a few weeks around Christmas time. I have also loaded experimental cartridges for the 454 Casull Super Redhawk mentioned earlier - jacketed, cast and swaged bullets. Let us see...

As to the Freedom Arms revolvers I have already bought and am waiting for permits. The police interviewed me and said I will most probably not get the permits because I already have more than an arbitrarily determined limit of five guns per purpose. Now I need to become a collector which will take probably a year or so. What a nice world we live in, the police have the power to decide how many guns you need.

***

sasu.... imperative that you slug the bore. In the event the barrel was overtightened at manufacture, chances are a COMPRESSION RING was formed in the bore at the juncture of FRAME and BARREL SHOULDER. To swage the bullet just as it seats into the rifling ruins accuracy. While you push the soft lead egg sinker through the bore (after first tapping it through with a brass drift, or taped steel rod), feel for looseness and tightness anywhere else in the bore. Such irregularity is a no-no for accuracy.

As you are limited to five firearms without a collector's permit (?), you may wish to sell the Ruger and replace it with a Freedom Arms Model 83 .44 Magnum. In the event you actually shoot silhouettes, the revolver may be fitted with Iron Sight Guns Works (ISGW) micro-click sights at the time of purchase (or added later). Freedom Arms offers a globe front sight for use in conjunction with the ISGW rear sight.

Freedom Arms M83 revolvers in .357, .41, and .44 Mag changed the firing line in IHMSA silhouette by virtually guaranteeing silhouette accuracy at time of purchase. Dan Wesson Arms' big frame revolvers in .44 Mag and, soon after, .357 Maximum, upped the ante prior to Freedom Arms entering the fray. A good Dan Wesson really gives up nothing in accuracy to a Freedom Arms. Unfortunately, DWA closed its doors years ago. CZ owns the brand now, But I cannot supply personal experience.

Whichever way you step, a silhouette shooter must have an accurate revolver to shoot at the top. For the kind of loot you're throwing around, I'd step directly to Freedom Arms.

For silhouette:
* 10-inch barrel.
* silhouette sights.
* trigger stop.
* Pachmayr grips (comes standard on Field Grade).
* Scope for load tests. My choice would be for the Leopold 2.5-8x32mm with target turrets and either a dot reticle, or a Mil Dot reticle----if you can talk Leopold into installing it.
* Leopold quick-release rings on the SSK Weaver-style base, or...
* Leupold Dual Dovetail rings in Leupold base. I do not like vertically-split rings which require loosening from scope to remove scope from base.
David Bradshaw

 

[sasu]

I am way, way over the five gun limit already so selling one, two, three or more guns wil not help. They make up these rules on the go. Official collecting is the only way to get more silhouette guns, at least for now.

I will slug the barrel, it will be an interesting experience.

I guess IHMSA rules will not allow an after market (Power Custom) base pin and cylinder latch. The gun just begs to be tightened up and I like tinkering.

 

[David Bradshaw]

sasu.... during the years I shot silhouette, revolvers fell under the Production Rule, which allowed no modifications except for a trigger job with factory parts only, paint on sights, manufactured aftermarket grips finished to a standard pattern. There was no scope category, even for Unlimited guns; strictly iron. A Smith & Wesson is shot with factory sights, a Ruger is shot with Ruger sights, and so on.

Winning S&W and Ruger revolvers were capable of printing five shots under 6-inches @ 200 meters. In .44 Magnum those S&W and Ruger sixguns almost certainly had chambers with .432" exit holes. Prior to the time certain manufacturers forgot the meaning of THREAD TIMING, and commented to over-tighten barrels, an oversize or off-axis forcing cone was the main accuracy killer. As long as chamber exits aren't sloppy, the forcing cone isn't sloppy, and the bore isn't sloppy, a big bore revolver tolerates up to .006-inch chamber-to-bore misalignment (sometimes more). Chamber-to-bore alignment becomes more critical as other dimensions wander. I learned at of this on the firing line. Certainly not from gun writers, nor gun manufacturers. Big bores are more tolerant of some misalignment than small bores, with the .22 Long Rifle absolutely receptive to a correctly dimensioned revolver.

Notice we haven't discussed the MUZZLE CROWN. Simply, the crown is less important than subjects mentioned above.

Dry Fire
No revolver takes dry fire better than a Ruger. S&W tends to be excellent. Strong snap caps are good for a Colt Python, and critical for a Freedom Arms. In fact, if you are going to buy a Freedom arms, make sure it has the screw-in firing pin bushing, along with 2 or 3 spare firing pins and springs.
David Bradshaw

 

[sasu]

My first Freedom Arms 454 Casull 20-25 years ago had a broken firing pin from dry firing, courtesy of previous owner. FAs get the respect they deserve from me. I currently have a 500 Wyoming Express, an exotic caliber for silhouette and the recoil with maximum loads requires a lot of concentration. Empty cases are very hard to get here.

Thread timing, or lack of it, is also a familiar phenomenon. My modern production S&W 25 45 Colt barrel has been tightened at the factory with such force that the frame was bent. S&W promised to take care of it but there is no way to send the gun back from Europe. Now a local gunsmith has the gun with instructions to try to bend the frame back. I have no need for a revolver with a crooked barrel so better to risk total destruction trying to fix it. Interesting to see how he solves this challenge.

Thank you for the encouragement to leave the Super Blackhawk cylinder as is. It is comforting to hear that reasonable looseness is not a problem for accuracy.

 

[David Bradshaw]

Thread timing, or lack of it, is also a familiar phenomenon. My modern production S&W 25 45 Colt barrel has been tightened at the factory with such force that the frame was bent. S&W promised to take care of it but there is no way to send the gun back from Europe. Now a local gunsmith has the gun with instructions to try to bend the frame back. I have no need for a revolver with a crooked barrel so better to risk total destruction trying to fix it. Interesting to see how he solves this challenge.

Thank you for the encouragement to leave the Super Blackhawk cylinder as is. It is comforting to hear that reasonable looseness is not a problem for accuracy.----sasu
*****

Imagine a Top of the Class Smith & Wesson mechanic could straighten the frame with lead hammers. For proper THREADING TIMING the barrel should hand-tighten to 10-degrees Before Top Dead Center (BTDC). Finer threads on the S&W barrel allow for a greater fudge factor than than coarser threads on a Ruger, even though the Ruger frame is considerably more rigid.

Take your time on finding a mechanic. Once the frame is straight, adjust thread timing.
* Hand tighten the barrel to frame.
* Looking down the muzzle, the front sight may be at 10 o'clock to the topstrap----30-degrees or more----BTDC.
* Calculate on the basis of thread pitch----TPI (threads per inch)----how much BARREL SHOULDER needs to be lathe-turned so that the barrel hand tightens to 10 or 12-degrees BTDC. An alternative is to dress the front of the frame; the yoke must match. This description doesn't cover all details. Do not install a barrel with incorrect thread timing. I do not know whether a compression ring is relieved when an over-tightened barrel is removed.

If the compression rings remains with barrel off revolver, alternatives include a) new barrel, b) fire lapping, and c) freeborn. Dave Manson makes excellent reamers which may be used to freebore a revolver barrel. Freebore should match groove diameter or be .0005-inch greater than groove diameter, and extend just past the frame/barrel shoulder. Freeborn typically drops velocity 50 fps. Rod Sward at Interarms, maker of the Virginia Dragoon, proved years ago on the Silhouette Dragoon model that freebore does not hurt accuracy, as these revolvers were good for 2.5-inch groups @ 100 meters.

As FIRE LAPPING has brought useful accuracy to to many revolvers, and done so without the voodoo of a gun-savvy machinist, fire lapping remains the first court of last resort.
David Bradshaw

 

[David Bradshaw]

sasu.... since adding to above notes, and looking at your photo of that dreadful S&W, it is hard to believe the revolver made it to the shipping room. Once the frame is straightened, and there is no reason to destroy the gun if it can be saved, cut or mold blocks to support the frame for tightening the barrel. With THREAD TIMING at 10-degrees BTDC, the frame (and barrel) won't be subject to the stress imposed by premature thread timing. Don't poke an axehandle through the cylinder window as an action wrench.

* The S&W ejector rod has Left Hand threads----tightens counter-clockwise. Fired shells are put in the chambers to support the extractor star when tightening the ejector rod. Use a padded plier to tighten or loosen ejector rod.

* As you press the thumb piece forward to unlock cylinder, the cylinder pin pushes a spring loaded plunger in the ejector shroud under the barrel. The pin must push the plunger out of the hollow ejector rod... otherwise the ejector rod drags over the plunger, which resistance you feel as you swing out the cylinder. When extended firing peens and shortens the cylinder pin, file the end of the ejector rod to be level with the cylinder pin, or a hair shorter. Restore the bevel on the knurled end of the ejector rod. This restores easy opening of the cylinder.
David Bradshaw

 

[sasu]

David, thank you for the advice. The work will be done by an experienced revolver smith. I would like to do part of the work myself but I do not have the tools. Yet. Oh, I have a tools for turning the ejector rod, I have ran into trouble trying to open tight ejector rods with pliers.

I mentioned risking the gun because there is a chance something breaks when bending the frame back. Especially the lower part of the barrel threads seems to be only about one millimeter, 1/32", thick. The smith said he has seen several S&W revolvers which have cracked in that place when people have tried to force the barrel straight. The smith is also worried about damaging the finish on the gun but that does not worry me, I want a shooting gun, not a showpiece.

 

[Yetiman]

You may want to try and measure your bore to see if you have any constriction near the sight, ejector screw hole or at the frame juncture.

My Bisley Hunter has .431 throats, but I had constriction in the bore at the ejector screw and where the barrel is screwed into the frame. I was able to fire lap it out, and while mine always had decent accuracy to begin with, it got quite a bit better.

As you already have pin gauges you can check this to rule it out pretty easily.

A good article on the subject: http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm

My foray into fire lapping with assistance from the author of the article above: http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/17895/slight-barrel-constriction-fire-lapping

 

[sasu]

I decided to order Power Customs oversize basepin and oversize cylinder latch to tighten up the cylinder. David, I know you said that is not so crucial but I can just as well go the whole nine yards. Remove trigger creep, too, while I am at it.

When I get suitable lead balls I will slug the bore and check for tight spots. If I find any I will go to our Ruger importer and ask them to order me a new barrel which I will have fitted by a competent gunsmith. Or have the gunsmith build me a custom barrel!

This will be my IHMSA Unlimited gun, then. While others shoot their FAs in Production Revolver class.

In inaccurate gun is a useless gun for me.

 

[David Bradshaw]

I decided to order Power Customs oversize basepin and oversize cylinder latch to tighten up the cylinder. David, I know you said that is not so crucial but I can just as well go the whole nine yards. Remove trigger creep, too, while I am at it.

When I get suitable lead balls I will slug the bore and check for tight spots. If I find any I will go to our Ruger importer and ask them to order me a new barrel which I will have fitted by a competent gunsmith. Or have the gunsmith build me a custom barrel!

This will be my IHMSA Unlimited gun, then. While others shoot their FAs in Production Revolver class.

In inaccurate gun is a useless gun for me.

*****

Less of a gamble to custom fit barrel of known high quality, Shilen and Douglas are two American makers which come to mind. Certainly there are other fine makers. I would prefer to start a .44 with .428-to-.429-inch groove diameter. Barrel should wrench-tighten to frame 10-degrees past hand-tightened. Attach from sight with a screw, or two; cement base with LocTite 380 or similar adhesive (adhesive may not be necessary).

Therefore, barrel is fitted before drilling & tapping for front sight and ejector housing.

Cut 11-degree forcing cone with barrel mounted in a lathe. Cut cone to a depth of 1/4-inch (.250"). A shorter cone works when chamber-to-bore alignment is dead nuts.
David Bradshaw

 

[sasu]

Less of a gamble to custom fit barrel of known high quality, Shilen and Douglas
...start a .44 with .428-to-.429-inch groove diameter.
...barrel is fitted before drilling & tapping for front sight and ejector housing.
...

I am beginning to like the idea of a custom Super Blackhawk, with a tightly fitted cylinder and custom built benchrest barrel!

 

[sasu]

I slugged the barrel with a 0.440" lead ball.

The diameter of the slug is now 0.4310" +/- 0.00025" as measured with two calipers many times.

There is a very definite tight spot at the barrel threads. When reusing the same slug I can easily push it into the barrel using bare hands on the aluminum rod but when the slug hits the thread area I need a hammer to force the slug through. I do not have to hammer hard but pushing the rod with bare hands is not enough.

I installed a Power Custom base pin which I measured at 0.2500". The factory pin was 0.2485". Now the cylinder is noticeably tighter, the wobble disappeared. The new base pin fit without modifications but there was a slight rough spot at the base pin latch hole which I removed with a needle file.

The next step is to contact my gunsmith with a quote for a custom made benchrest barrel for this revolver.

After that I can install an oversize cylinder latch to remove the last movement of the cylinder, being careful to align the chambers with the barrel as the cylinder will not be able to self align anymore.