SD ammo for .45 ACP

[Clovishound]

Now that I have a 1911, I'm thinking about loading it up for home defense.

There is an amazing variety of SD ammo out there. I'm probably overthinking this, as the .45 is a very capable round.

One concern I have is that the .45 is a lower velocity round. I'm not sure that standard HPs will expand much. I know that I can get lower weight bullets and +P to increase the MV. Then there are the ARX rounds as well as the ones with tines that fold out. Not sure about the last two.

What say you?

Again, I suspect a run of the mill HP in 200 grain would do the job. Just thinking out loud and might be an interesting exercise.

On a side note, I will likely carry this weapon next hunting season for defense against feral hogs that might decide to take a run at me. They are notorious for tough hides with difficult penetration. I'm thinking the ARX might be the ticket, although I may need to check the regs to see if there is a prohibition against non expanding ammo. The logical choice to me would be a 230 grain soft point.

 

[DGW1949]

What I think is that unlike small bore pistol cartridges, a SAMMI-Spec 230/45ACP does not need to expand in order to do it's job. And on a similar note, there's enough bullet mass there for plenty of penetration without resorting to increased velocities and +P pressures.
Point being that down is down, dead is dead, and what once worked still works...so be careful that you don't fall prey to those who would have you overthink the matter for their own gain. You know?...like the gun rag writers with a vested interest in their advertisers, and the ammo manufactures whom are getting rich off of their latest/greatest SD ammo of the month.

DGW

 

[Paul B]

My Colt Combat Commander is stoked with 230 gr. Federal Hydrashoks. Nuff said?
Paul B.

 

[Clovishound]

What I think is that unlike small bore pistol cartridges, a SAMMI-Spec 230/45ACP does not need to expand in order to do it's job. And on a similar note, there's enough bullet mass there for plenty of penetration without resorting to increased velocities and +P pressures.
Point being that down is down, dead is dead, and what once worked still works...so be careful that you don't fall prey to those who would have you overthink the matter for their own gain. You know?...like the gun rag writers with a vested interest in their advertisers, and the ammo manufactures whom are getting rich off of their latest/greatest SD ammo of the month.

DGW

I guess I'm still a little in the rut of choosing SD ammo for my 9. Not only do you have to consider effectiveness, but over penetration, and ricochets as well. As I said, I know the .45 is a very capable caliber, so I really don't feel the need for a super duper, latest technology round. Just wondered what everyone else thought.

I'll probably end up with some 200 or 230 grain JHPs, without worrying too much about brand or style.

 

[GunnyGene]

Look at the Hornady and Underwood offerings. For me, the reliability of the round is more important than velocity, etc., especially for SD. That sucker better go bang every time. I've had excellent reliability from both of those suppliers - never a failure to feed or fire.

https://underwoodammo.com/product-category/handgun-ammo/45-acp/

http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Auto

That said, I've run probably 10,000+ rounds of plain Jane GI issue ball ammo in Govt. 1911A1's over the course of 20+ years and never had a ammo failure either.

 

[tinman]

Years back I carried one as my primary......any of the name brand HP offerings will do just fine. :idea:

 

[bisleyfan41]

Federal HSTs can be found here:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/50-round-box-45-auto-federal-hst-230-grain-hp-hollow-point-le-ammo-p45hst2

or here:

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/federal-hst-le-45-acp-auto-ammo-230-grain-jhp-p45hst2-p-3548.aspx

First class self defense ammo at a bargain price-usually you pay over a dollar per round when you buy this stuff in the commercial 20-round boxes. I've done business with both companies and they are good to go.

Food for thought in helping you decide for yourself regarding ammo performance:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Head to head comparisons of most popular self defense ammo is on bottom half of the page. Not the final word by any means, but helpful in drawing comparisons. Hope this helps.

 

[NikA]

I use the Federal HST LE overruns for SD loads in auto pistols. They seem to be generally accepted for LE and SD use, the 50rd LE boxes bring the price down to a reasonable cost per round, and from the tests I've seen, they are better than other non-bonded rounds as far as post-barrier expansion goes.

The tests I've seen recommend the standard versus +P loadings of these cartridges, at least for 9MM. The .45ACP loadings are about 50fps from one another (890 versus 950), so I would just buy whichever is less expensive. I expect either would do the job just fine.

Target Sports USA (no affiliation) has the 9MM HSTs on sale now for less than 20$/50 and the +P .45 230s for not much more at 24$/50.

 

[pruger45]

I use 230 grain JHP's!

 

[Clovishound]

Federal HSTs can be found here:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/50-round-box-45-auto-federal-hst-230-grain-hp-hollow-point-le-ammo-p45hst2

or here:

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/federal-hst-le-45-acp-auto-ammo-230-grain-jhp-p45hst2-p-3548.aspx

First class self defense ammo at a bargain price-usually you pay over a dollar per round when you buy this stuff in the commercial 20-round boxes. I've done business with both companies and they are good to go.

Food for thought in helping you decide for yourself regarding ammo performance:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Head to head comparisons of most popular self defense ammo is on bottom half of the page. Not the final word by any means, but helpful in drawing comparisons. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the test link. That really helps spell it out. Turns out the SD ammo I picked up for my 9mm is pretty much on the money for penetration and expansion. In .45 the same brand and type doesn't expand, and over penetrates. That's a bad combo.

The Federal HST looks pretty good, although there are several Hornady offerings that do fairly well also. I'm more concerned with expansion to prevent over penetration, than to enhance effectiveness with this caliber.

Locally, the Federal HST is about $10 a box more than the Hornady XTPs that also performed well. No sense in cheaping out on SD ammo, but if they don't have the Federal, the Hornady should work as well.

Thanks again, that web page really lays everything out quite well. It also goes to show that similar types of ammo, don't always perform similarly. It's definitely an eye opener.

Just let me give a little bit of advice. Be careful when at the range with your SD ammo. I decided to do some training with my carry gun a few months ago. I pulled the mag full of SD ammo and set it aside and started a few drills. Without thinking, I did a quick mag change and proceeded to blast through over $20 worth of SD ammo in short order.

 

[mikld]

There's a couple thought floating around about SD ammo; small and fast vs. big and slow. Personally I believe my 1911 with either 230 gr LRN or 200 gr LSWC loads is perfect for home defense. Both hot 9mms and 45 ACPs will stop an arguement, but I like the history of the 45 ACP with military ball loads...

 

[Clovishound]

There's a couple thought floating around about SD ammo; small and fast vs. big and slow. Personally I believe my 1911 with either 230 gr LRN or 200 gr LSWC loads is perfect for home defense. Both hot 9mms and 45 ACPs will stop an arguement, but I like the history of the 45 ACP with military ball loads...

An FMJ in .45 will likely stop the argument, but it will also likely over-penetrate. If you look at the luckygunner chart at some of the HPs that didn't open up, they penetrated as deep as 29". That opens the door for collateral damage. I want my round to expend it's energy in the bad guy, not travel on to possibly hurt an innocent, or possibly a loved one.

 

[GunnyGene]

There's a couple thought floating around about SD ammo; small and fast vs. big and slow. Personally I believe my 1911 with either 230 gr LRN or 200 gr LSWC loads is perfect for home defense. Both hot 9mms and 45 ACPs will stop an arguement, but I like the history of the 45 ACP with military ball loads...

An FMJ in .45 will likely stop the argument, but it will also likely over-penetrate. If you look at the luckygunner chart at some of the HPs that didn't open up, they penetrated as deep as 29". That opens the door for collateral damage. I want my round to expend it's energy in the bad guy, not travel on to possibly hurt an innocent, or possibly a loved one.

Good luck with that. People (and animals) are not ballistic gel. The size of the bad guy and the path of the bullet thru his interior arrangement will determine how far the bullet penetrates and which direction it takes if it exits. Once that slug touches clothing or skin all bets are off. And that doesn't consider the growing likelihood that he's wearing some kind of body armor, in which case you're only target of value is a head shot.

If you go for minimum penetration rounds expecting them to expend all their energy in the body, you are likely to be sorely disappointed in several ways. One of them being that you may not stop the fight in time to avoid being dead yourself. You can blow a mans heart out, and he'll still have 15 or 20 seconds to kill you before he dies. And if he's on drugs, he might not even know he's been shot.

Also, don't assume for a second that you'll be able put bullets in him in the first place, you'll probably miss a lot. Which is why the police yell at everyone in earshot to hit the floor - they know they are going to miss - a lot.

So worrying about "over penetration" should be the last thing on your mind. And I guarantee it's the last thing on a armed bad guys mind.

I just want you to think about what I've said, and what others have also said before you make up your mind.

 

[Clovishound]

Well, I'm not looking for minimum penetration rounds. Obviously, that has a whole set of drawbacks. I tend to look at the FBI's recommendation of at least 12 inches, but not over 18.

I don't believe for a minute that ballistic gel is the same as a body full of bones and organs. Having said that, you have to have some kind of objective testing to be able to extrapolate the performance of a round in a real world situation. Right now, ballistic gel is the best we have. I doubt we will find many people willing to volunteer to be guinea pigs for ballistic testing.

And yes, I am thinking about what you and others have said. This is the whole reason for me posting this, and I appreciate all the replies I have gotten so far. I'm looking for different opinions. Obviously, I can't agree with all of them, as some are totally divergent from others. It is a complex balancing act. Again, I am probably overthinking this with this particular caliber.

As long as you don't say something bad about my cat, we're good. :wink:

 

[GunnyGene]

Well, I'm not looking for minimum penetration rounds. Obviously, that has a whole set of drawbacks. I tend to look at the FBI's recommendation of at least 12 inches, but not over 18.

I don't believe for a minute that ballistic gel is the same as a body full of bones and organs. Having said that, you have to have some kind of objective testing to be able to extrapolate the performance of a round in a real world situation. Right now, ballistic gel is the best we have. I doubt we will find many people willing to volunteer to be guinea pigs for ballistic testing.

And yes, I am thinking about what you and others have said. This is the whole reason for me posting this, and I appreciate all the replies I have gotten so far. I'm looking for different opinions. Obviously, I can't agree with all of them, as some are totally divergent from others. It is a complex balancing act. Again, I am probably overthinking this with this particular caliber.

As long as you don't say something bad about my cat, we're good. :wink:

I may have gotten too far into the weeds with my reply, but I'm never sure what somebody else's background and experience might be.

Anyway, by "others" I was including people outside of this forum. The topic is widely discussed and is very subjective depending on everyone's experience (or lack thereof). It's been studied to death by forensics doctors, morticians, LE, college professors, and the military; and the consensus is that there is no consensus. Too many variables to be predictable, regardless of the caliber or bullet design. There have been men I know of who have survived with a mortar round buried in their gut, that (luckily) didn't go off. And others who have died from a .22lr.

So I, and most others, just pick one and hope we picked right in the event we might have to test it. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Not an ideal conclusion, I know, but it is what it is.

ETA: Here's a very recent example of what I'm talking about:

Two officers who exchanged gunfire with a man earlier this month outside a Walnut Hills apartment complex have been cleared of any charges, Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters announced Tuesday.. Police said Damion McRae, 37, shot Cincinnati police Officer Kenneth Grubbs outside a Walnut Hills apartment complex on March 12. Grubbs and McRae were injured, but are expected to make full recoveries. Officials released body camera footage from the two officers who responded to the shooting. Cincinnati police were called to an apartment building on Gilbert Avenue on reports of a domestic violence incident. Grubbs and Officer William Keuper, who were riding together as partners, found McCrae in the apartment's courtyard. As the officers attempted to stop McCrae, prosecutors said, McCrae shot Grubbs with a 9 mm rifle concealed at his side. Grubbs was shot in the lower abdomen and fell to the ground.

Prosecutors said Grubbs returned fire as he fell. Officials said Keuper, who was walking behind Grubbs when he was shot, also returned fire at McCrae. Investigators said McCrae was struck and fell to the ground. Deters said Grubbs fired 17 times, and Keuper fired eight rounds. Investigators said McCrae continued to reach into his pockets after the incident, despite police telling him not to. Deters said McRae also was carrying a .22-caliber revolver. McRae has been indicted on one count of attempted murder, two counts of felonious assault, two counts of weapons under disability, one count of carrying a concealed weapon and one count of assault

More: https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/03/21/bodycam-shows-intense-shootout-cincinnati-police/

 

[Clovishound]

I hear you. To make things even worse, what works great for one situation, may fail miserably in another with only a minor difference. This even with the same weapon and shooter.

Still, there are obviously some rounds that stand a better chance of being what you need at any given time than others.

My fervent hope is that I will never need to find out whether I made a good choice or not.

I'm leaning towards the Federal HST, or Hornady XTPs. Either in the 200 or 230 grain flavor. They seem to have a good balance of penetration and expansion. I'm still not sure I will use this as my home defense weapon, but am leaning that way. At any rate it would be prudent to have some SDs on hand, and tested for feeding in my weapon. I may wait until I get the extra magazines from the promotional deal. That way I can load up 2 mags with SD rounds and leave them loaded without having to unload them every time I take the 1911 to the range. With only seven rounds in the mag, an extra mag on hand would be nice. I will also carry an extra couple mags when I go hunting. If I unload a whole mag at a charging hog, and another decides to take a turn, I would like to be able to share with him as well.

 

[GunnyGene]

I hear you. To make things even worse, what works great for one situation, may fail miserably in another with only a minor difference. This even with the same weapon and shooter.

Still, there are obviously some rounds that stand a better chance of being what you need at any given time than others.

My fervent hope is that I will never need to find out whether I made a good choice or not.

I'm leaning towards the Federal HST, or Hornady XTPs. Either in the 200 or 230 grain flavor. They seem to have a good balance of penetration and expansion. I'm still not sure I will use this as my home defense weapon, but am leaning that way. At any rate it would be prudent to have some SDs on hand, and tested for feeding in my weapon. I may wait until I get the extra magazines from the promotional deal. That way I can load up 2 mags with SD rounds and leave them loaded without having to unload them every time I take the 1911 to the range. With only seven rounds in the mag, an extra mag on hand would be nice. I will also carry an extra couple mags when I go hunting. If I unload a whole mag at a charging hog, and another decides to take a turn, I would like to be able to share with him as well.

I added a story with bodycam video of a recent shootout to my previous, while you were typing this. Worth watching.

ETA: One other thing that might help thin the herd a little: I'd suggest avoiding any ammo that does not use flash suppressed powder. It's hard enough to see in the dark without being blinded by unnecessarily bright muzzle flash.

 

[bisleyfan41]

Federal HSTs can be found here:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/50-round-box-45-auto-federal-hst-230-grain-hp-hollow-point-le-ammo-p45hst2

or here:

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/federal-hst-le-45-acp-auto-ammo-230-grain-jhp-p45hst2-p-3548.aspx

First class self defense ammo at a bargain price-usually you pay over a dollar per round when you buy this stuff in the commercial 20-round boxes. I've done business with both companies and they are good to go.

Food for thought in helping you decide for yourself regarding ammo performance:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Head to head comparisons of most popular self defense ammo is on bottom half of the page. Not the final word by any means, but helpful in drawing comparisons. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the test link. That really helps spell it out. Turns out the SD ammo I picked up for my 9mm is pretty much on the money for penetration and expansion. In .45 the same brand and type doesn't expand, and over penetrates. That's a bad combo.

The Federal HST looks pretty good, although there are several Hornady offerings that do fairly well also. I'm more concerned with expansion to prevent over penetration, than to enhance effectiveness with this caliber.

Locally, the Federal HST is about $10 a box more than the Hornady XTPs that also performed well. No sense in cheaping out on SD ammo, but if they don't have the Federal, the Hornady should work as well.

Thanks again, that web page really lays everything out quite well. It also goes to show that similar types of ammo, don't always perform similarly. It's definitely an eye opener.

Just let me give a little bit of advice. Be careful when at the range with your SD ammo. I decided to do some training with my carry gun a few months ago. I pulled the mag full of SD ammo and set it aside and started a few drills. Without thinking, I did a quick mag change and proceeded to blast through over $20 worth of SD ammo in short order.

And just to add a bit to my first post, most police departments seem to favor either the Federal HST or the Speer Gold Dot. And while all these choices can be debated back and forth a zillion times, the fact that these two bullets are overwhelmingly the choice of law enforcement agencies should weigh just a bit in their favor. Some issue Rem Golden Saber and Win Ranger loads. I've never heard a single agency issue Hornady's (either XTP or Critical Duty), Barnes, CorBon, etc.

Of course, it can be argued that LE needs are different from civilian needs. The links I provided are just the 45 HST loads, but both companies offer just about every HST, Gold Dot, Ranger and Golden Saber bullet in every weight and caliber. And they are 50-count boxes for the same price, or cheaper, than your local shop sells 20-count boxes for. There is added shipping, but it is minimal and you should buy a few boxes at the same time to spread the cost out a bit. I can't recommend buying the 50 round boxes highly enough. It just makes economical sense.

 

[7p's]

I'll just add this - LE may have additional "needs" for their ammunition such as barrier penetration etc. IMO, whatever the LEO might need, so might the "average Joe" in his time of "need".

I doubt there is much argument involving bonded bullets vs non-bonded, as bonded does it all, expands extremely well and defeats common barriers.

I'm a firm believer in Gold Dot anything - I believe Federal, Remington and Winchester all produce excellent commercial bonded ammunition as well.

For reloading your own - I believe Speer Gold Dot is the only available bonded component for reloading. Remington will sell the BJH bullets for reloading but the B stands for brass, not bonded. They also sell both the brass and bonded versions of commercial ammunition, so you better know what version you're purchasing and only the manufacturing code number will tell you that, as it seems the gun store employees sometimes get it wrong.

For a 45 ACP - 7.5 grains of VV N350 behind a 230 grain Gold Dot will give you 915fps in a very good easy shooting load in a 1911 with a 5" barrel. Great hunting round as well.