RonEgg
Blackhawk
resident":2xoghl8c said:
I think that is just about as well as it can be said.
Ruger in .45ACP
- Thread starter usmcgunny0369
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I think that is just about as well as it can be said.
CraigC
Hawkeye
That's very intuitive. I have to agree and I'm just as guilty. I always said that I'd be first in line when Ruger decided to build a mid-frame .44Spl and here it is over a year later and I have not yet even thought about ordering one. I reckon I'd rather spend the $500 towards getting another Old Model .357 converted. I'm just to the point where I'd much rather own fewer, better guns than a truckload of factory guns. I do really like the new .44Spl Bisley though.
I think that if everybody really wanted a .45ACP Ruger double action, they would've either had a .45 Redhawk converted for moonclips (too easy!) or bought a S&W. I'll eat my hat with a side of crow if Ruger comes out with a new double action platform that is somewhere between the GP and the Redhawk.
I think that if everybody really wanted a .45ACP Ruger double action, they would've either had a .45 Redhawk converted for moonclips (too easy!) or bought a S&W. I'll eat my hat with a side of crow if Ruger comes out with a new double action platform that is somewhere between the GP and the Redhawk.
Nicksterdemus
Bearcat
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2009
- Messages
- 73
"Anyone who wants such a gun should buy a Redhawk, take it to their custom gunsmith and have it altered..."
S&W has several models in 45 acp available, yet they're all 6 rnd.
Even the NG in 44 spl is 5 rnd, but would S&W make a 5 rnd 45acp?
N-O-O-O-O-O-O.
Is there some gun commandment that doesn't allow 5 rnd 45acp?
As previously mentioned, there's no real ballistic difference between the 44spl & 45acp, yet you pay a 1/3 or less for the acp ammo(that's Waly & Academy prices when they have 44spl) & you can find it at a lot more locations.
I almost bought a 44spl Night Guard, but the price never dropped quite enough to suit my taste.
The Charter Arms 44spl Bulldog was designed in 1969.
40 years later a small, 5 rnd, 45acp wheelgun cannot be manufactured affordably?
I find it a bit hard to swallow.
It doesn't have to made outa walletsoakium fer cryin' out loud.
S&W has several models in 45 acp available, yet they're all 6 rnd.
Even the NG in 44 spl is 5 rnd, but would S&W make a 5 rnd 45acp?
N-O-O-O-O-O-O.
Is there some gun commandment that doesn't allow 5 rnd 45acp?
As previously mentioned, there's no real ballistic difference between the 44spl & 45acp, yet you pay a 1/3 or less for the acp ammo(that's Waly & Academy prices when they have 44spl) & you can find it at a lot more locations.
I almost bought a 44spl Night Guard, but the price never dropped quite enough to suit my taste.
The Charter Arms 44spl Bulldog was designed in 1969.
40 years later a small, 5 rnd, 45acp wheelgun cannot be manufactured affordably?
I find it a bit hard to swallow.
It doesn't have to made outa walletsoakium fer cryin' out loud.
resident
Single-Sixer
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2010
- Messages
- 412
Nicksterdemus":2k4rz3l0 said:
Firearms mfr's are not in business to make one or two guns of a particular model. The engineering/tool-up costs have to be spread of a lot of guns to "..be manufactured affordably..." You and the two or three other guys present who would actually buy that gun ain't enough to make it "affordably".
If you think that statement is way out of whack... then why don't YOU buy that Charter Arms in 44 and take it to your gunsmith, have the chamber reamed to .45 ACP and the barrel broached to .45 and see how "affordably" you found that little project to be. I'm sure you'll be thrilled with the result. :wink:
CraigC
Hawkeye
S&W can't produce a five-shot .45ACP on current platforms. The L-frame isn't big enough and is at its limit with the .44Spl. The N-frame, obviously, is big enough to be a six shot. Let us also not forget that you have to manufacture the moonclips too.
usmcgunny0369
Bearcat
I guess all those owners of S&W and Taurus revolvers in .45 ACP misunderstood what they were purchasing. I have to believe it would cost more money to purchase a RedHawk and then pay a custom gunsmith to modify it than buy a model already chambered for that caliber. I respect your opinion but have to disagree. I believe a model designed in this caliber would not only sell but cut deeply into S&W's Model-25 sells.
Nicksterdemus
Bearcat
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2009
- Messages
- 73
One reason CA could build the 44spl Bulldog in as small of a package was the strength of their frame design that eliminated the side plate.
Their goal was to produce a compact wheelgun that shot a large, low velocity shell.
They found a way to make it happen.
Setting up a new line on a CNC shouldn't take that much effort. Certainly not the same amount of effort that was required in the past.
The L frames have been out for two decades. They are successful in holding up to large amounts of hot loads.
That's not to imply that there isn't a use for the old K-frame w/stronger material in certain applications even if they have to stretch it a tad.
The five rnd 44spl NG shouldn't have to be much bigger to accommodate the 45acp.
Gun manufacturers spend tons of money on something trying to increase their share of the market.
Take the .327 for instance. Can you really make a case that it is so much different than the .357 that it deserved it's own classification as a new line?
Not quite as powerful, can be made in a smaller package and needed ammunition dedicated for it's caliber.
It's also just another high pressure rnd.
Anyone that makes moon clips could make a five rnd .45acp clip. That's not even a half a step.
Yes, a five rnd 45acp would be considered a niche gun. Not everyone that enjoys revolvers wants to carry a five round 38spl +P or a .357 mag.
I like the 44spl. yet the economics & availability of the 45acp is what stands out in this concept.
As well, it's not another gun on the same frame, but one designed around a five rnd cylinder of 45acp.
Take some metal that doesn't cost an arm and a leg and tweak a K-frame w/short window that's only long enough to accommodate the 45acp.
It doesn't need to be built to withstand top end magnum pressures.
The ammunition has been around for a century, so obviously the rnd is popular w/masses.
A lot of folks don't care for a 45acp wheelgun because of its size, but they want a 45.
The basic bottom feeders aren't that expensive. However, when you look at ones smaller than an Officers model the price jumps.
You start running into stove pipes and FTE that you don't hardly see on the government model.
That's another plus for the fairly compact wheelgun. It's gonna go bang five times w/o a hitch.
Some folks say the moon clips are awkward, but most folks aren't going to take extra ammo anyway. Even so, after the first five w/clip they could load another five out of a speed strip or individually.
I gotta stop coz I'm already lookin' at S&W 45acp wheelguns online...
Three inch tapered brl w/or w/o half lug on a round butt grip frame.
Their goal was to produce a compact wheelgun that shot a large, low velocity shell.
They found a way to make it happen.
Setting up a new line on a CNC shouldn't take that much effort. Certainly not the same amount of effort that was required in the past.
The L frames have been out for two decades. They are successful in holding up to large amounts of hot loads.
That's not to imply that there isn't a use for the old K-frame w/stronger material in certain applications even if they have to stretch it a tad.
The five rnd 44spl NG shouldn't have to be much bigger to accommodate the 45acp.
Gun manufacturers spend tons of money on something trying to increase their share of the market.
Take the .327 for instance. Can you really make a case that it is so much different than the .357 that it deserved it's own classification as a new line?
Not quite as powerful, can be made in a smaller package and needed ammunition dedicated for it's caliber.
It's also just another high pressure rnd.
Anyone that makes moon clips could make a five rnd .45acp clip. That's not even a half a step.
Yes, a five rnd 45acp would be considered a niche gun. Not everyone that enjoys revolvers wants to carry a five round 38spl +P or a .357 mag.
I like the 44spl. yet the economics & availability of the 45acp is what stands out in this concept.
As well, it's not another gun on the same frame, but one designed around a five rnd cylinder of 45acp.
Take some metal that doesn't cost an arm and a leg and tweak a K-frame w/short window that's only long enough to accommodate the 45acp.
It doesn't need to be built to withstand top end magnum pressures.
The ammunition has been around for a century, so obviously the rnd is popular w/masses.
A lot of folks don't care for a 45acp wheelgun because of its size, but they want a 45.
The basic bottom feeders aren't that expensive. However, when you look at ones smaller than an Officers model the price jumps.
You start running into stove pipes and FTE that you don't hardly see on the government model.
That's another plus for the fairly compact wheelgun. It's gonna go bang five times w/o a hitch.
Some folks say the moon clips are awkward, but most folks aren't going to take extra ammo anyway. Even so, after the first five w/clip they could load another five out of a speed strip or individually.
I gotta stop coz I'm already lookin' at S&W 45acp wheelguns online...
Three inch tapered brl w/or w/o half lug on a round butt grip frame.
maxpress
Buckeye
quote;
As previously mentioned, there's no real ballistic difference between the 44spl & 45acp, yet you pay a 1/3 or less for the acp ammo(that's Waly & Academy prices when they have 44spl) & you can find it at a lot more locations.
this is just if were talking factory ammo. handloaders have much more flexibility with .44spl than with 45acp
As previously mentioned, there's no real ballistic difference between the 44spl & 45acp, yet you pay a 1/3 or less for the acp ammo(that's Waly & Academy prices when they have 44spl) & you can find it at a lot more locations.
this is just if were talking factory ammo. handloaders have much more flexibility with .44spl than with 45acp
I've often wondered why Smith doesn't set up a custom or semi-custom CNC line or shop that could offer "made to order" guns based on existing S&W numbers.Nicksterdemus":3ln876gb said:
Just for an example, how about a 617 (.22LR) with an external barrel contour exactly like the old M19/66, instead of the underlugged thing? Maybe I'd like a round butt with that while I'm at it. Or an N-framed 625 (.45ACP) with a round butt and a 3.5" barrel shaped like the old M27 .357 barrel? Just plug in the numbers and crank me one out. Shouldn't cost more than $50 to $100 over the MSRP of a standard catalog gun, especially since I'll be sending my money direct to the factory; they won't have to discount it for one or more middlemen jobbers, wholesalers, etc. (I'll pay my LGS a reasonable fee to legally get the thing into town for me).
I'd think that such an operation would quickly become a "profit center" for any mfgr who would set up such a thing. (Doesn't Savage do something similar in their bolt action rifles?)
CraigC
Hawkeye
IMHO, you guys that think a brand new frame size can be whipped up in a matter of minutes have no idea what it really takes. S&W has developed only two new frame sizes in about the last hundred years. One, the L-frame, was focused on their largest revolver market and the 686 is by far their biggest seller. The other, the X-frame, is drastically different from anything else. If you think that this stuff happens overnight and with little forethought or expense, think again.
Yeah, I'm sure it would be cheaper if the factory made exactly what YOU want but they don't. So you can either sit there and endlessly try to figure out how THEY can accommodate a niche within a niche or you can take matters into your own hands and spend the $150 to make it so.
Yeah, I'm sure it would be cheaper if the factory made exactly what YOU want but they don't. So you can either sit there and endlessly try to figure out how THEY can accommodate a niche within a niche or you can take matters into your own hands and spend the $150 to make it so.
Yosemite Sam
Hunter
Ah, but then you get into that sticky position of the company not wanting to undercut their distribution channels. I used to work for a major computer manufacturer, and always found it odd that you could buy that company's gear cheaper through a reseller than you could from the company itself. I have since learned that that is almost always the case.Snake45":38drpg21 said:
It would be nice if I could buy a Ruger from Ruger, cut out the middlemen, and save a few hundred bucks, but Ruger's (or S&W's) business model wouldn't stand for it, unfortunately.
(Yes, I see that what you're proposing is somewhat different than just buying "a gun" from the manufacturer, but I think you'd still run into the same issue.)
--- Sam
Nicksterdemus
Bearcat
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2009
- Messages
- 73
"...could offer "made to order" guns..."
As time goes by that could become more of a reality.
I'm guessing that they have a fair idea of how many guns they need to sell in order to turn enough profit.
It's faster/more cost effective to do larger runs of the same.
Guesstamating again I'd think 250-300 clams over MSRP would be required for starters.
However, as they progressed it would be cheaper I just don't think they would wish to share in the savings.
Only a C-note more could cause a bottleneck. At the same time this would equate to more catalog inventory on hand further eroding the price while folks wait for their custom build.
Guns come out at a high price. As time drags by the price drops until it reaches a closeout price in order to move the merchandise out of the way for the next best thing.
Unless demand strips current supply, naturally.
They never would have to discount custom orders while using a cash deposit.
It would be a nice feature, but I don't think you'll be able to cut out the dealers. Besides, you need a FFL for transfer and it might as well be the folks that are already moving your wares.
I'd pay half down to go online, pick my frame/brl/grip frame/finish etc., if the price was right.
Another potential issue is folks waiting to put their deposits down due to the build/backorder time. You'd want to limit the window of opportunity for casting a wandering eye at the competition or lose the sale to some non-firearm related merchandise.
Still, I like the idea and while they're at it how about some different dimensions on revolver grip frames?
The changeable backstraps on semi-autos though generic in nature are nice for the price.
It would be slick if you could order a gripframe 1/8"-1/4" smaller or larger and likewise the LOP closer or farther.
By the time I figured out what I wanted I wouldn't be able to afford the price.
Such is the nature of the beast in customizing. You have to pay if you want to play and there are no bargains to be found.
That's OK as it does no harm to mull over notions and opine varying ideas.
-------------------------
S&W isn't going to manufacture a 5 rnd 45acp wheelgun.
They already have several 45acp models in traditional six round configuration.
I have serious doubts about the Charter Arms Rimless Revolver although the nice lady swore last month that they would start to be available within 60 days.
My issue w/Rimshot is the additional parts, springs designed to eliminate moon clips. The more you add the more there is to go wrong.
A rather bold adventure though especially when attempting to come out w/9mm, 40 & 45 caliber wheelgun.
"Initially snub barrels (2" 9mm and 2.2" .40 S&W and .45 ACP) as these revolvers are designed for self defense and back up. The 9mm is built on Charter Arms' compact and lightweight undercover platform featuring an aluminum frame and weighing only 12 ounces. The .40 S&W and .45 ACP built on the popular and robust Bulldog frame due to the larger diameter of these cartridges while maintaining a compact profile."
And they're all five round cylinders. If they don't have Patent or mechanical issues and finally bring these to market then time will tell if indeed there is a viable market for a more compact, dedicated five round cylinder wheelgun incorporating semi-auto ammunition.
I still would want a longer brl and I'd like to see a basic moon clip offering by Ruger. Their little .380 & 38spl sustain fleeting hope that they may engage similar projects, in the near future, equally bold that once were considered out of context of their standard fare.
I'm not expecting a company to build a full sized replica of the Pyramids of Giza or the Sphinx for cryin' out loud.
This ain't rocket science. In fact it's so simple a formula that I don't understand why they aren't building them now.
This is based on the price and availability of 45acp ammunition.
Nuttin' agin reloading, yet most folks buy factory ammo.
I'm also a firm believer that Ruger would manufacture a more desirable sidearm than CA.
As time goes by that could become more of a reality.
I'm guessing that they have a fair idea of how many guns they need to sell in order to turn enough profit.
It's faster/more cost effective to do larger runs of the same.
Guesstamating again I'd think 250-300 clams over MSRP would be required for starters.
However, as they progressed it would be cheaper I just don't think they would wish to share in the savings.
Only a C-note more could cause a bottleneck. At the same time this would equate to more catalog inventory on hand further eroding the price while folks wait for their custom build.
Guns come out at a high price. As time drags by the price drops until it reaches a closeout price in order to move the merchandise out of the way for the next best thing.
Unless demand strips current supply, naturally.
They never would have to discount custom orders while using a cash deposit.
It would be a nice feature, but I don't think you'll be able to cut out the dealers. Besides, you need a FFL for transfer and it might as well be the folks that are already moving your wares.
I'd pay half down to go online, pick my frame/brl/grip frame/finish etc., if the price was right.
Another potential issue is folks waiting to put their deposits down due to the build/backorder time. You'd want to limit the window of opportunity for casting a wandering eye at the competition or lose the sale to some non-firearm related merchandise.
Still, I like the idea and while they're at it how about some different dimensions on revolver grip frames?
The changeable backstraps on semi-autos though generic in nature are nice for the price.
It would be slick if you could order a gripframe 1/8"-1/4" smaller or larger and likewise the LOP closer or farther.
By the time I figured out what I wanted I wouldn't be able to afford the price.
Such is the nature of the beast in customizing. You have to pay if you want to play and there are no bargains to be found.
That's OK as it does no harm to mull over notions and opine varying ideas.
-------------------------
S&W isn't going to manufacture a 5 rnd 45acp wheelgun.
They already have several 45acp models in traditional six round configuration.
I have serious doubts about the Charter Arms Rimless Revolver although the nice lady swore last month that they would start to be available within 60 days.
My issue w/Rimshot is the additional parts, springs designed to eliminate moon clips. The more you add the more there is to go wrong.
A rather bold adventure though especially when attempting to come out w/9mm, 40 & 45 caliber wheelgun.
"Initially snub barrels (2" 9mm and 2.2" .40 S&W and .45 ACP) as these revolvers are designed for self defense and back up. The 9mm is built on Charter Arms' compact and lightweight undercover platform featuring an aluminum frame and weighing only 12 ounces. The .40 S&W and .45 ACP built on the popular and robust Bulldog frame due to the larger diameter of these cartridges while maintaining a compact profile."
And they're all five round cylinders. If they don't have Patent or mechanical issues and finally bring these to market then time will tell if indeed there is a viable market for a more compact, dedicated five round cylinder wheelgun incorporating semi-auto ammunition.
I still would want a longer brl and I'd like to see a basic moon clip offering by Ruger. Their little .380 & 38spl sustain fleeting hope that they may engage similar projects, in the near future, equally bold that once were considered out of context of their standard fare.
I'm not expecting a company to build a full sized replica of the Pyramids of Giza or the Sphinx for cryin' out loud.
This ain't rocket science. In fact it's so simple a formula that I don't understand why they aren't building them now.
This is based on the price and availability of 45acp ammunition.
Nuttin' agin reloading, yet most folks buy factory ammo.
I'm also a firm believer that Ruger would manufacture a more desirable sidearm than CA.
Leucoandro
Single-Sixer
I said no.
What I would like is a new handgun based on the improved lockwork of the GP100/SRH, the same size as the Redhawk in 45 Colt, that could handle the Ruger/Thompson Center only 45 colt loads to go along with my Blackhawk in 45 Colt. Basically just a larger GP100 (Call it the GP200?).
Charlie
What I would like is a new handgun based on the improved lockwork of the GP100/SRH, the same size as the Redhawk in 45 Colt, that could handle the Ruger/Thompson Center only 45 colt loads to go along with my Blackhawk in 45 Colt. Basically just a larger GP100 (Call it the GP200?).
Charlie
Nicksterdemus
Bearcat
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2009
- Messages
- 73
"...that could handle the Ruger/Thompson Center only 45 colt loads..."
That's understandable and w/case capacity the 45 Colt, as well as others, compliments hot loads and reloaders by offering a wide range from mild to wild.
In the same vein, on the other end of the spectrum, this is what also helps the 45 ACP shine as a factory load.
It's a good SD cartridge that never was designed for bear, hog or deer hunting. A big slow roll hole at close range w/o breaking the sound barrier.
I doubt whether most owners would be interested in shooting anything other than the standard 230 gn or possibly a lighter 200gn.
----------------------------------------------------
Ruger proved, when they introduced the NV to end up being the only Vaquero, that they could and would build a wheelgun that wouldn't be described as, "Built like a tank" for a change and not be able to handle, "Ruger/TC only" loads.
The market changes and it's fueled by the buyers dollar.
I hadn't owned a Ruger for decades and happened across a floor model NV 45 Colt. Renewed my interest in SA & Ruger.
Had no need for the 44 mag, even though ammo is widely available and not much more than the spl, so I bought a 44spl flat top coz its ammo was more available than the 45 Colt.
In all fairness, I also was already acquainted w/44spl in DA.
This lead me to buy the Bisley 44spl NM. and even though I'd prefer a thinner grip frame w/wooden stocks I'm very happy overall.
If I hadn't happened across the NV I wouldn't have ever bought the two flat tops.
Sometimes niche guns pay off by bringing in new customers.
Sometimes you need new blood to help keep the company afloat, so they can continue to build the old standby sidearms.
I don't qualify as a collector, connoisseur or a power buyer, yet I've put my money where my mouth is and if they build sumpthin' I like I'll do it again.
Right about now I'd like a 45 acp in a five rnd cylinder, yet if Ruger built a 6 rnd then I'd give it due consideration if no 5 rnd was available...
That's understandable and w/case capacity the 45 Colt, as well as others, compliments hot loads and reloaders by offering a wide range from mild to wild.
In the same vein, on the other end of the spectrum, this is what also helps the 45 ACP shine as a factory load.
It's a good SD cartridge that never was designed for bear, hog or deer hunting. A big slow roll hole at close range w/o breaking the sound barrier.
I doubt whether most owners would be interested in shooting anything other than the standard 230 gn or possibly a lighter 200gn.
----------------------------------------------------
Ruger proved, when they introduced the NV to end up being the only Vaquero, that they could and would build a wheelgun that wouldn't be described as, "Built like a tank" for a change and not be able to handle, "Ruger/TC only" loads.
The market changes and it's fueled by the buyers dollar.
I hadn't owned a Ruger for decades and happened across a floor model NV 45 Colt. Renewed my interest in SA & Ruger.
Had no need for the 44 mag, even though ammo is widely available and not much more than the spl, so I bought a 44spl flat top coz its ammo was more available than the 45 Colt.
In all fairness, I also was already acquainted w/44spl in DA.
This lead me to buy the Bisley 44spl NM. and even though I'd prefer a thinner grip frame w/wooden stocks I'm very happy overall.
If I hadn't happened across the NV I wouldn't have ever bought the two flat tops.
Sometimes niche guns pay off by bringing in new customers.
Sometimes you need new blood to help keep the company afloat, so they can continue to build the old standby sidearms.
I don't qualify as a collector, connoisseur or a power buyer, yet I've put my money where my mouth is and if they build sumpthin' I like I'll do it again.
Right about now I'd like a 45 acp in a five rnd cylinder, yet if Ruger built a 6 rnd then I'd give it due consideration if no 5 rnd was available...
deac45
Single-Sixer
Leucoandro":1f68hxuy said:
I've been cryin' for that for years! Put the GP/Super style two spring action and grip frame on the Redhawk. I say it would be a winner and SERIOUSLY challenge the S&W 29/629 in the market.
deac45
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