WESHOOT2
Hunter
If one cannot tolerate H110/W296, most highly recommend AA9, and N110.
Questions about H110 and forcing cone erosion-UPDATE
- Thread starter J Miller
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J Miller
Blackhawk
WESHOOT2":eqnnw7us said:
Isn't AA9 a ball powder too? Why would it be any different than H110?
I know nothing about N110, what type of powder is it?
Joe
454PB
Bearcat
Yes, AA#9 is a ball powder. So is WC820, which is nearly the same burn rate as AA#9 in some lots. I use both of them.
WESHOOT2
Hunter
Both burn 'softer'.
Both offer nearly as high velocity.
Both can offer exceptional accuracy.
Both offer nearly as high velocity.
Both can offer exceptional accuracy.
flatgate
Hawkeye
Joe,
OK, the spec's look pretty good. I've NEVER attained as good results with WLP's vs. what I've seen with CCI's 350 primers. I'm not familiar with your bullets so one question comes to mind. Any "air space" in the case after bullet seating or is the powder column right up to the base of the bullet? (My technique for "new loads" with WW-296 is to figure out how much powder it takes to fill the case to the base of the seated bullet then subtract 2 grains as a starting load. Usually I end up with adding those 2 grains back to get the optimum results. Of course, in my guns with my brass, etc. yada yada yada).
WW-296 can be "fickle", i.e. a bit tricky to obtain the desired results. In my experience it certainly needs a "tight boiler", as does SR-4759. A half grain too light and lots of unburned powder shows up. (Perfect "sand blast" medium.)
Of course, all of this babble is JMHO.
flatgate
OK, the spec's look pretty good. I've NEVER attained as good results with WLP's vs. what I've seen with CCI's 350 primers. I'm not familiar with your bullets so one question comes to mind. Any "air space" in the case after bullet seating or is the powder column right up to the base of the bullet? (My technique for "new loads" with WW-296 is to figure out how much powder it takes to fill the case to the base of the seated bullet then subtract 2 grains as a starting load. Usually I end up with adding those 2 grains back to get the optimum results. Of course, in my guns with my brass, etc. yada yada yada).
WW-296 can be "fickle", i.e. a bit tricky to obtain the desired results. In my experience it certainly needs a "tight boiler", as does SR-4759. A half grain too light and lots of unburned powder shows up. (Perfect "sand blast" medium.)
Of course, all of this babble is JMHO.
flatgate
J Miller
Blackhawk
Flatgate,
I don't "think" there is any air space under the bullet. I do have some more of the bullets now and I can check.
Here is a picture of the bullet:
Lee's designation is: C452-300-RF
I seated it to the bottom crimp grove in the .45 Colt cases.
I used the 21.5grs load because a member over on Leverguns.com uses it in his Marlin 1894 with good results.
I only fired one group with my Marlin and that was off hand after I was already tired so my results were dismal.
I have some CCI 350s and some Federal 155 LPM primers to use. So switching to a dedicated mag primer is no problem.
You mentioned lots of unburned powder if the load is too light, in this case there a few powder kernels around but nothing objectionable. I was considering upping the load to 22.0 to see what happens.
I'm also going to try some 2400. I've used this with other 300gr bullets with good results.
Joe
I don't "think" there is any air space under the bullet. I do have some more of the bullets now and I can check.
Here is a picture of the bullet:
Lee's designation is: C452-300-RF
I seated it to the bottom crimp grove in the .45 Colt cases.
I used the 21.5grs load because a member over on Leverguns.com uses it in his Marlin 1894 with good results.
I only fired one group with my Marlin and that was off hand after I was already tired so my results were dismal.
I have some CCI 350s and some Federal 155 LPM primers to use. So switching to a dedicated mag primer is no problem.
You mentioned lots of unburned powder if the load is too light, in this case there a few powder kernels around but nothing objectionable. I was considering upping the load to 22.0 to see what happens.
I'm also going to try some 2400. I've used this with other 300gr bullets with good results.
Joe
WESHOOT2
Hunter
Use mag primers.
Ensure firm crimp.
Weigh bullets.
When recutting your forcing cone did you cut past the heat treatment?
Ensure firm crimp.
Weigh bullets.
When recutting your forcing cone did you cut past the heat treatment?
J Miller
Blackhawk
WESHOOT2":12z39gd8 said:
OK
Will Do
Did, actual weight 310 grs
I used the instructions from Iowegan. He never said anything about heat treating. Said to cut only till I had a clean cut from the barrel opening to the rifling. That's what I did.
Joe
WESHOOT2
Hunter
After a really thorough chemical cleaning I'd shine a strong light on the area of concern and examine under magnification, simply because I'm having a hard time accepting that 17 rds of anything can begin visible erosion.
I buy 3lb cans of W296; I still have a 'bit' (I bought H110 in 1lb containers only).
I buy 3lb cans of W296; I still have a 'bit' (I bought H110 in 1lb containers only).
J Miller
Blackhawk
Weshoot2,
I've done exactly that. When I recut the forcing cone it was not "perfect" as the rear of the barrel is cut at an angle and I didn't have a facing cutter to square it off. Some folks can do that with a file and be dead nuts on, not me.
I cut the forcing cone till the low right side was crisp and there was a clean cut from the opening to the rifling. On the left side was a very tiny area of old edge that didn't get cut away. I could have cut more but I figured enough was enough. It worked, accuracy improved a little bit, leading reduced a big bunch.
(Here is a thread on Handloads.com that shows a pic of where I quit. You see the left side still shows some of the old erosion, but the right side cut closer to the edge.
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts ... 747&KW=460
There are approximately 1259 rounds through it since it was recut, most of them were standard pressure rounds. There was a few +P type hand loads run through it but those used either 2400 or 4227. 10 rounds of Corbon +P factory ammo was also shot up.
The only ball powders I normally use are 231 which is a flattened ball, and rarely AA#5. These are not used in heavy loads.
I've checked the records and there have been exactly 17 rounds loaded with H110 shot through this gun. (Unless CorBon uses H110 in their factory ammo.) Six at 22 grs under a Hornady 300gr XTP HP, and 11 at 21.5 under the Lee 300gr FNGC bullet.
OK, they say the devil is in the details. I went back to my hard drive files and looked at all the photos I took when I recut forcing cone back in May of 06. The only two I posted on the internet was those in the Handloads thread.
The pics of the right side show I did not cut to the very edge like I'd thought I had. I stopped short. So even though it was far less on the right side than the left there was still some old erosion on the edges of the barrel all the way around.
So you're correct that these 17 rounds did not start the erosion. They're just adding to the tiny amount I'd left .
The end result however will be the same. The more hot +P ball powder loads I shoot the more the existing erosion will grow. In short order I'll need to have the barrel set back and the forcing cone recut again.
(Or replace it with a 4-5/8" barrel since I can't afford to buy a BKH44X.)
I wish I'd gone back and looked at my pics before I started this thread. Now I've embarrassed myself and feel like an idiot.
Joe
I have some
I've done exactly that. When I recut the forcing cone it was not "perfect" as the rear of the barrel is cut at an angle and I didn't have a facing cutter to square it off. Some folks can do that with a file and be dead nuts on, not me.
I cut the forcing cone till the low right side was crisp and there was a clean cut from the opening to the rifling. On the left side was a very tiny area of old edge that didn't get cut away. I could have cut more but I figured enough was enough. It worked, accuracy improved a little bit, leading reduced a big bunch.
(Here is a thread on Handloads.com that shows a pic of where I quit. You see the left side still shows some of the old erosion, but the right side cut closer to the edge.
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts ... 747&KW=460
There are approximately 1259 rounds through it since it was recut, most of them were standard pressure rounds. There was a few +P type hand loads run through it but those used either 2400 or 4227. 10 rounds of Corbon +P factory ammo was also shot up.
The only ball powders I normally use are 231 which is a flattened ball, and rarely AA#5. These are not used in heavy loads.
I've checked the records and there have been exactly 17 rounds loaded with H110 shot through this gun. (Unless CorBon uses H110 in their factory ammo.) Six at 22 grs under a Hornady 300gr XTP HP, and 11 at 21.5 under the Lee 300gr FNGC bullet.
OK, they say the devil is in the details. I went back to my hard drive files and looked at all the photos I took when I recut forcing cone back in May of 06. The only two I posted on the internet was those in the Handloads thread.
The pics of the right side show I did not cut to the very edge like I'd thought I had. I stopped short. So even though it was far less on the right side than the left there was still some old erosion on the edges of the barrel all the way around.
So you're correct that these 17 rounds did not start the erosion. They're just adding to the tiny amount I'd left .
The end result however will be the same. The more hot +P ball powder loads I shoot the more the existing erosion will grow. In short order I'll need to have the barrel set back and the forcing cone recut again.
(Or replace it with a 4-5/8" barrel since I can't afford to buy a BKH44X.)
I wish I'd gone back and looked at my pics before I started this thread. Now I've embarrassed myself and feel like an idiot.
Joe
I have some
tek4260
Buckeye
Idiot? I think not. Sounds to me like you are a professional when it comes to reloading and shooting and you pay attention to every detail no matter how small. A good percentage of the internet "experts" simply repeat what sounded good, which goes against you. Kind of like those who say they get 1400fps from 325's in 45 Colt, and I can't seem to get close using the same book load that they tout.
WESHOOT2
Hunter
H4227, then.
Question: Is erosion self-limiting? I mean, like top strap erosion.
Question: Does anyone (else) still use Brownells Action Magic II on these areas of concern to reduce or eliminate erosion?
325s is fer sissies; real men get started at 335g, then test the 350s, then 360s, then fire a few 395s (with my eyes closed; hit my chrono screens five of six; not joking) and call it a day.
Then sell the 45.
Not kidding; I did.
LOL
Question: Is erosion self-limiting? I mean, like top strap erosion.
Question: Does anyone (else) still use Brownells Action Magic II on these areas of concern to reduce or eliminate erosion?
325s is fer sissies; real men get started at 335g, then test the 350s, then 360s, then fire a few 395s (with my eyes closed; hit my chrono screens five of six; not joking) and call it a day.
Then sell the 45.
Not kidding; I did.
LOL
J Miller
Blackhawk
WESHOOT2":33qwpf72 said:
I have used IMR 4227 with heavy 250gr jacketed bullet loads. It smelled funny but provided good accuracy and fairly clean burns.
Top strap erosion is self limiting.
Forcing cone erosion will continue till the gun spits like a sand blaster.
I mentioned earlier I'd ruined the forcing cones on two guns with Win 630 ball power. The third gun to fall victim to W 630 is my current Mdl 28. W-630 started the erosion and then when that was discontinued all the thousands of magnum rounds loaded with 2400, and what ever else continued it.
I had to have the barrel set back and a new forcing cone cut to stop the spitting. It had gotten so bad it made me bleed.
I'll play with 300 gr bullets. I think that is a good weight for anything on the North American continent. I've shot a few 350s and they are not for me.
If I have to shoot bullets that big from my .45 Colt, I seriously need a rifle.
..............................................
Over on Handloads.com forum a member by the name of Paul5388 was tell us how his S&W Mdl 28-? had several thousand rounds of heavy mag loads through it and the forcing cone area looked new. He had shot IMR SR 4756 through it almost exclusively.
Then as a test he fired one or two cylinders of ammo loaded with either H110 or 296 and after just those few rounds there was forcing cone erosion.
He has pictures posted too, but I don't have links to the threads.
It can happen. In my Rugers case it didn't. But it will see no more 296/H110. What I have left will be shot from my rifles.
Joe
WESHOOT2
Hunter
(pssst: Brownells Action Magic II; really).......
J Miller
Blackhawk
WESHOOT2":1sn8bnzy said:
Never heared of it. Whatzit do?
Joe
WESHOOT2
Hunter
It is a superb long-lasting lubricant.
When applied,, like to a topstrap or forcing cone, it allows high-velocity particles to 'skid' off, greatly resisting erosion. It should NOT be applied in the bore, but anywhere else is fine. Like ignition parts.
"Apply and let dry"
Odd how some stuff gets forgotten, or improperly disseminated.
When applied,, like to a topstrap or forcing cone, it allows high-velocity particles to 'skid' off, greatly resisting erosion. It should NOT be applied in the bore, but anywhere else is fine. Like ignition parts.
"Apply and let dry"
Odd how some stuff gets forgotten, or improperly disseminated.
tek4260
Buckeye
My dealer gave me 2 8lb(i think) cans of SR-4756. I have to look up some loads for it one day and try it out. Hard to reach past the H-110 though :wink:
J Miller
Blackhawk
tek4260":1y0m5ex9 said:
I wish I had a generous dealer like that. Boy howdy do I.
Joe
If ya gotta paint stuff on your top strap to prevent erosion, ya still got's a problem.....band aid or not.
All this talk about ball powders kinda got me to thinking about Winchester's own super-speed 110 Grn factory loading that also likes to eat top straps. Do you reckon that Winchester is loading them things with ball powder?...I'd bet the farm on it.
Just saying.
DGW
All this talk about ball powders kinda got me to thinking about Winchester's own super-speed 110 Grn factory loading that also likes to eat top straps. Do you reckon that Winchester is loading them things with ball powder?...I'd bet the farm on it.
Just saying.
DGW
Bucks Owin
Hunter
tek4260":pldn1vfm said:
I expect one "could" drive a 325 that fast but I'd want a 5 shot cylinder to do it in! Certainly pressures would be substantially above the reasonable limit of 30K in a .45 BH...Besides, a 325 gr .45 Colt at a measly 1,000 fps would likely drop a dinosaur in it's tracks!!! :lol:
