Question about powder

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zacharoo

Bearcat
Joined
Sep 4, 2009
Messages
56
I have found a place that has some old Winchester powders. The are all in good shape and under $10 a pound. If HS6 is the same as Win. 540, and HS7 is the same as Win. 571 . Would HS5 be the same as Win. WSL powder?

Zacharoo
 

Sharp Shooter

Single-Sixer
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
110
zacharoo":394nwlrc said:
I have found a place that has some old Winchester powders. The are all in good shape and under $10 a pound. If HS6 is the same as Win. 540, and HS7 is the same as Win. 571 . Would HS5 be the same as Win. WSL powder?

Zacharoo

Wow Zach! I really don't have a clue, and I'm sure as heck not arguing. But I AM wondering what sources you're citing that say HS6 is the same as Win.540, and HS7 is the same as Win. 571.
It's just that I've been into handloading for a long time, a lot longer than there's been such a thing as an internet, and I've noticed that even on this forum the argument about whether or not W296 and H-110 are the same powder pops up every six months or so.:lol:
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
20,833
I agree with Sharp Shooter!
I've been loading for over 30 years and I'm always amazed at the folks who THINK one powder is the "same" as another. Especially when it's from the same manufacturer.
Get your loading manuels out,, look at the burning rate charts,, and see that while some powders are CLOSE to one another,, they are NOT the same.
Remember,, we are dealing with an expolsive compound here. ALWAYS use the correct loading charts & powder recipies.
PS; I'd buy as much powder I can at $10 a pound,, no matter which type it is. I can ALWAYS find a use for it.
 

zacharoo

Bearcat
Joined
Sep 4, 2009
Messages
56
I made a mistake . Not the same I mean. You can use the lower end to close to same . Because the burn rates are so close .
 

Jimbo357mag

Hawkeye
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
10,101

pps

Single-Sixer
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
306
If you hand load any unknown powder it could end badly. Be 100% sure of which powder(s) you have.
 

454PB

Bearcat
Joined
Mar 30, 2005
Messages
48
FWIW, Hodgdon has said that H-110 & WW296 are the same powder, H-414 and WW 760 are the same powder, and HP-38 and WW231 are the same powder. The only real variation will be lot to lot.

Take a look at the most recent Hodgdon load manuals and you'll see charge weights and velocities for these powders are identical.
 

Sugar River

Buckeye
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
1,051
You guys do realize that there is one Ball Powder plant in the US, Olin St Marks.

In other words the difference is packaging and lot to lot variation.
Powder Equivalencies Per Chris Hodgdon:
HP38/W231
HS6/W540
HS7/W570 571
H110/W296
H414/W760
H335/W748/BLC-2

To get back to the original question, I don't know that WSL has been packaged under a Hodgdon label.

Pete
 

nvbirdman

Blackhawk
Joined
Jun 14, 2002
Messages
712
If you tell us what you're loading the HS 5 in, we can look in some old loading manuals and give you some load data.
 

Rick Courtright

Hawkeye
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Messages
7,749
Hi,

I'm gonna take some flak for saying this, but if it says HS-6 on the jug, it's HS-6, NOT Win 540. And so forth...

One must be VERY careful reading what the mfrs and distributors say. The way statements are worded may be critical. For example, Win 540 and HS-6 were sold side by side for years. The data for the two was similar, but NOT identical at that time. People who loaded both often reported "similar, but not identical" results as well, just as H-110 and Win 296 loaders do today.

Then, Winchester dropped 540 from their line. Hodgdon's picked up distribution of Winchester's powders. And they added a claim in their data that "HS-6 is identical to the DISCONTINUED Win 540" and recipes could be interchanged.

What does that tell us? That HS-6 was always the same as 540? NO. It tells us if you buy HS-6 TODAY you'll be getting what you would have gotten had you bought Win 540 back then!

Considering Hodgdon's track record, in particular putting one powder in the other jug in the 4227 situation (H-4227 in an IMR-4227 jug or vice versa--I forget which), I prefer to use data that's not only specific to the powder listed on the jug, but "date appropriate" as well.

For example, I recently finished a small can of "original" IMR 4198. It was made by DuPont, probably around 40 yrs ago. Since that time, "a" powder w/ that designation has been sold by IMR Corp who took over from DuPont and then Hodgdon's who took over from IMR. Are they the same powders? Maybe, but I'm not standing on anyone's word they are. I loaded MY powder using the recipe from a DuPont book. All was safe... even if unexciting.

As was suggested to me in another thread recently, "Do what you think is prudent."

I do.

And suggest others look carefully at what's "prudent" to them when looking at these "equivalancy" statements... "exciting" is NOT a word I like to see used w/ reloading recipes! ;)

Rick C
 

mattsbox99

Hunter
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
3,391
Sugar River":2hp9b7mq said:
You guys do realize that there is one Ball Powder plant in the US, Olin St Marks.

In other words the difference is packaging and lot to lot variation.
Powder Equivalencies Per Chris Hodgdon:
HP38/W231
HS6/W540
HS7/W570 571
H110/W296
H414/W760
H335/W748/BLC-2

To get back to the original question, I don't know that WSL has been packaged under a Hodgdon label.

Pete


Why would H335 and BLC2 be the same powder? They are both packaged by Hodgdon and have different charge weights and different burn speeds for the same cartridges and bullet weights.

I do know that H414 and W760 are the same, along with the others that you mentioned, but H335 and BLC2 powders are Australian ADI powders and NOT W748. Just because there is only one Ball powder plant in the US, doesn't mean there is only one in the world. Accurate and Ramshot get their ball powders from Sweden, Vihtavuori does as well. Alliant doesn't have a ball powder but they get their powders from Sweden and Australia along with the powder they make at New River.
 

ebg3

Bearcat
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
76
I would say HS5 is similar to WSL and I wouldn't be afraid to try it if you have an application for WSL. I would not use the same charge but start low and work up. You should be able to find some kind of data on HS5 to help you out. For $10/lb, I'd try it.
Back to the powder comparisons, I think I read somewhere that either HP-38 or 231 had a flash retardant added and that made the two powders a bit different. And I agree that H335 and BLC-2 are not the same powders. Didn't know that Ramshot powders and Accurate powders were from Sweden but I figured the two Powder lines were pretty much the same, just packaged differently. As to the 296/H110 debate, I've heard they were the same and I've heard they were a little different...I have not experimented with them enough to know the truth. I do think the only difference you'd see would be like a lot-to-lot variation for one powder. It is funny that data is limited to only one of the two a lot of times.
 

Snake45

Hawkeye
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
6,064
454PB":12tpbx75 said:
FWIW, Hodgdon has said that H-110 & WW296 are the same powder, H-414 and WW 760 are the same powder, and HP-38 and WW231 are the same powder. The only real variation will be lot to lot.

Take a look at the most recent Hodgdon load manuals and you'll see charge weights and velocities for these powders are identical.
Exactly so. And yet, if you look at "powder burn rate charts" (no two of which agree), you'll find W231 and HP38 listed four to seven slots apart!
 

res45

Bearcat
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
9
H-110 and W296 along with W231 and HP-38 are the same powders just lot to lot variations as with any powder,personally I haven't found any difference between lots in those mentioned powders. Hodgdon's is just a brand name,they don't mfg powder,in fact alot of Hogdon's powder is made in the land down under.

Take IMR and H-4227 for an example IMR was made in Canada and H-4227 was made in Australia,however now the brand H-4227 has been dropped from the Hodgdon's line and IMR-4227 is all they carry IMR is not made in Canada anymore but in fact is the H-4227 powder sold under the IMR name,Hodgdon's owns Win. and IMR there various powders are just names assigned to a particular burn rate/application.

When Hodgdon's purchases powder for the Mfg. they purchase it in lots of say 10 box car loads and each lot is tested. Box cars 1,2,3 and 8,9,10 as an example may not fall in a particular burn rate vs. charge weight so they are sold to ammo co. for loading commercial ammo. The remaining box cars of powder 4,5,6, and 7 do fall into the specific burn rate vs. charge weight and are packages as canister powder to be sold to the public.

If you go to Hodgdon's web site and look up any load using the H110 or W296 or W231 and HP-38 where they both are used using same caliber/bullet weight you will see both sets of date for those two groups of powders are exactly the same across the board. And my chrono verifies that with the powders I use.

Here are just a few examples

9mm
115 GR. LRN Winchester 231 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP

115 GR. LRN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP

357 Mag.
158 GR. HDY XTP Winchester 296 .357" 1.580" 15.0 1418 28,600 CUP 16.7 1591 40,700 CUP

158 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon H110 .357" 1.580" 15.0 1418 28,600 CUP 16.7 1591 40,700 CUP

Burn Rate Chart
http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html
 

WESHOOT2

Hunter
Joined
Mar 19, 2005
Messages
2,124
WSL is/was the absolute BEST choice for 200g-n-up 41 AE loads.
I still got a 'bit'.
 

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