Primers!?

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gmaske

Bearcat
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I use to buy only CCI primers but with the market the way it is I'm buying what I can get. So now I've got a mix that spans more than half of the current manufacturers. Is there any information available on the diffrent power factor from brand to brand. Really the only loading I'm currently worried about is my max load of 296 in my 357 S & W revolver. It would be nice to know were I might need to back it down some.
 

gmaske

Bearcat
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I didn't think this got posted as I was having huge problems with the server last night.
Yep i know what to do i was just wondering about the diffrent primers and their relative power levels.
 

Mobuck

Hawkeye
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Theoretically, the most cost effective process would be to determine a source of a replacement brand and then test some before purchasing a large amount. In other words,if you know a place that has enough Win SPM, buy 100-200 and work up your load. If it is satisfactory, go back and buy an adequate supply to last you needs for 3-5 years(or more). Otherwise, buy a small supply of whatever is on the shelf and hope the CCI primers become available by the time you run out of temporary stock.
 

mattsbox99

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If you are at Max with any powder, especially H110/W296 you need to back down and work up even if you change lot numbers. Nearly every blown up revolver I've ever seen has been with H110/W296.
 

the fatman

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mattsbox99":3nfddylk said:
If you are at Max with any powder, especially H110/W296 you need to back down and work up even if you change lot numbers. Nearly every blown up revolver I've ever seen has been with H110/W296.
Wow! Be hard to get a double charge in most revolver rounds. But I guess you can do anything if you put your mind to it. :shock:
 

Bucks Owin

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mattsbox99":1t5441eg said:
If you are at Max with any powder, especially H110/W296 you need to back down and work up even if you change lot numbers. Nearly every blown up revolver I've ever seen has been with H110/W296.
Hmmm. How many have you seen? Of all the handgun powders I can think of, I'd rather have a tad too much W296 or H110 in the case than any other! ...JMO, Dennis
 

gmaske

Bearcat
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It is hard to afford to order more than a few thousand at a time. The local supply is super spotty at best but they are cheaper IF I can find what I need. I usually end up ordering on line. The closest store that carries them is 20 miles away so the UPS fees are offset some by the gas savings. Still it do suck! I finally got a shipment of Federal small mag pistol primers from Powder Valley and I'm due to receive a couple thousand Rimington Small pistol primers from Midway tomorrow. That rounds out all the stuff I load for with the large rifle and pistol primers I already had. I can now load and shoot for a spell before I'll be needing again. Dang! It sure was a lot easier before this shortage stuff started. :cry:

A max load of 296 in a .357 with a 125G HP is sorta compressed....Makes it hard to over do it.....Still I'm sure it can be done! :roll:
 

mattsbox99

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H110/W296 does not take a double charge, or even 1.5x charge to be in the 60k PSI range for most rounds. It also behaves erratically at low charge weights and can stick a bullet in the bore.
I'm not going to post all the equations from Quickload on here, but use caution when changing any component at max charges.

I've personally seen about a dozen blown up guns (good friend is a gunsmith).
 

gerryb158

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Why in the world does this keep going on? Primers do not blow up guns! If you have proof that they do please tell me! A "primer" is a spark, and I don't care if it's a Magnum primer or a standard pistol or rifle primer. If you are a bench rest shooter that's another story as accuracy is the major factor. Otherwise, pay attention to how much powder and what kind you put into the cartridge. That is where you get into trouble, not primers! Gerry
 

Jimbo357mag

Hawkeye
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So. Florida
I am no expert but I have read many times and seen data that shows magnum primers can increase pressure and velocity over a standard primer.
Winchester WLP Large Pistol Primers say they are "for standard or magnum pistol loads".
Some pistol loads of slow burning powders require a magnum primer they say for good ignition.

...Jimbo
 

Bucks Owin

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IMO, even H-110 / W296 light off just fine with a WLP. Some claim more uniform ballistics with a CCI350 but my experience is the opposite. Guess if I was hunting the arctic circle I'd use a magnum primer...FWIW, Dennis (who thinks that if a change to a magnum primer creates too much pressure, your load's too hot anyway!) :wink:
 

ebg3

Bearcat
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In my .40 STI and SVI, a small rifle primer adds about 15fps over a small pistol primer in my game load. I've used Win., Fed., CCI, and Wolff primers without any noticable variation. I'll use whatever I can get my hands on but don't change b/n rifle and pistol primers without making sure my overall power factor is still where it needs to be. Right now, I'm using CCI small rifle because they were available.
When at max, it is a good idea to back off a little when any componant is varied. To answer your OP, I've never seen a power factor comparison for primers.
 

Rick Courtright

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gmaske":z4ed93pa said:
Is there any information available on the diffrent power factor from brand to brand.

Hi,

I don't know of a "power factor" for primers, but there's something called "brisance" involved w/ primers. One can look it up for a better explanation of the term; a poor one would be that it measures the heat and duration of the flame provided by the primer.

So when you hear one primer's "hotter" than another, it's basically a way of saying it will light off the powder better/faster/more consistently (depending on application) than another. Think of the difference in the flame when you light a matchbook match vs a kitchen stick match vs your Bic lighter if you will... and which might be the best choice for lighting different kinds of fires.

Rick C
 

DGW1949

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gmaske":14unsegd said:
I use to buy only CCI primers but with the market the way it is I'm buying what I can get. So now I've got a mix that spans more than half of the current manufacturers. Is there any information available on the diffrent power factor from brand to brand. Really the only loading I'm currently worried about is my max load of 296 in my 357 S & W revolver. It would be nice to know were I might need to back it down some.

No offense to either you, anyone else, or to Winchester...but...
Even if you find such a chart, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in it for picking a primer to interchange on a high-end load....particularly if I was using the powder you use.
I'm much more comfortable with the "where to back down some" part of your question(s), which I'd reckon to be 10% with most powders. "Most" though, might not nessessarily be the same as yours in that aspect. Might be a good question to ask a tech at Winchester...or maybe Sierra...or both.

Just my 02 .

DGW
 

gmaske

Bearcat
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78
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Colorful Colorado
I'm working with an old load I used to use. Winchester 296. The current data on their (Hodgdon) website lists a Minimum of 21 grains and a Maximum of 22 grains for the 125 grain XTP bullet. I've loaded a box of 50 Rimington 125 grain Golden Sabers on top of 21.5 grains with CCI Mag primers. My old Speer #10 list a max of 21.6 on this load and the Lee 2nd addition lists 18.5 grians for a maximum. I will add here that I've found that a lot of the data in Lee's second addition to be a bit conservative.
 

NCMountains

Bearcat
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Can you detail the Lee 2nd edition.....I have the same manual and see where it shows 18.5c which indicates a compressed charge. Explain to me what a compressed charge is as compared to start grains???? Reason I ask.......listed for Win296 it has N/A across the board for grains and in the second column it has never exceed of 18.5c

gmaske":1azceiow said:
I'm working with an old load I used to use. Winchester 296. The current data on their (Hodgdon) website lists a Minimum of 21 grains and a Maximum of 22 grains for the 125 grain XTP bullet. I've loaded a box of 50 Rimington 125 grain Golden Sabers on top of 21.5 grains with CCI Mag primers. My old Speer #10 list a max of 21.6 on this load and the Lee 2nd addition lists 18.5 grians for a maximum. I will add here that I've found that a lot of the data in Lee's second addition to be a bit conservative.
 

gmaske

Bearcat
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Colorful Colorado
NCMountains":286bkdpd said:
Can you detail the Lee 2nd edition.....I have the same manual and see where it shows 18.5c which indicates a compressed charge. Explain to me what a compressed charge is as compared to start grains???? Reason I ask.......listed for Win296 it has N/A across the board for grains and in the second column it has never exceed of 18.5c

gmaske":286bkdpd said:
I'm working with an old load I used to use. Winchester 296. The current data on their (Hodgdon) website lists a Minimum of 21 grains and a Maximum of 22 grains for the 125 grain XTP bullet. I've loaded a box of 50 Rimington 125 grain Golden Sabers on top of 21.5 grains with CCI Mag primers. My old Speer #10 list a max of 21.6 on this load and the Lee 2nd addition lists 18.5 grians for a maximum. I will add here that I've found that a lot of the data in Lee's second addition to be a bit conservative.

Simply put, the bullet compresses the powder in the shell. It is much more common in rifle cartridges than pistol. Winchester 296 has a narrow operating range in pistol use anyway. The Speer #10 shows 19.6 min and 21.6 as max. This is a fairly old manual. Under charging of 296 as I have read can exhibit very high pressure spikes just as bad as over maxing the charge. I tend to trust the Hodgdon data as they now make and market Winchester 296.
The data copied from their site:
125 GR. HDY XTP Winchester 296 .357" 1.590" 21.0 1881 38,400 CUP 22.0 1966 41,400 CUP

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
 

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