Police shoot homeowner who was defending his family

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vito

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https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2018/08/01/police-kill-home-defender-mistaking-intruder/?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=.

Obviously we need to know more about what happened before we accuse the police or condemn the deceased as negligent, but this is a situation that any one of us might face. Its no guarantee, but I think when calling 911 it would always be prudent to give the authorities some information about what you look like or are wearing so as to reduce the chances that when police arrive they will think you the bad guy. And not having a gun in your hand when police enter your home would seem to be the prudent thing to do. But of course it is possible that the sound of firing his gun inside his home when he killed the intruder so deafened the homeowner that he did not hear the police entering his home or announcing that they were the police. No matter the facts, this was a tragedy.

What do you think is the best way to avoid this outcome should you ever need to defend your family within your home?
 

dougader

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Don't call the police. The homeowner clearly took care of the matter just fine. When things are under control, then call the "cleaners" to come over and do what they do best: clean up the mess after the fact.
 

contender

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I applaud the OP's comments about not judging w/o all the facts.

We, as gun owning folks, who believe in protecting ourselves & our families could, as mentioned above,, find ourselves in the very same position.

If confronted by a threat, stop the threat, secure your home, and then call 911. Give them a brief reason they need to come, and a description of yourself, and then,, hang up. Go outside, sit in an open space, wait, and when they arrive,, put your hands in a non-threatening posture, and even lay down. OBEY any & all commands,, but do NOT speak, except to request a doctor & a lawyer. A doctor to assist you in your stress & mental state for having to use a firearm to stop someone, and a lawyer to keep you out of jail.
It is not a crime to hang up on 911.
It is not a crime to shut up,, ("You have the right to remain silent.)
It is not a crime to request a doctor, and do NOT talk to anyone but a certified doctor,,, (remember,, they can testify against you or for you,, so make sure you express your thoughts as you were trying to stop the threat.) Do not say things like; "I wanted to kill the thug" or anything that even appears to show you were an aggressor.
The cops are going to do an investigation, and they want the facts.

It's up to a prosecutor, and even a grand jury to decide if you get charged.

Do not "help" them prosecute you.

But,, by diffusing the situation first, then calling 911, and NOT be in any way a "threat" when the cops arrive is paramount.
The cops do not know who is the bad guy & who is the thug when they arrive. They,,, like any of us,, see a firearm in a person's hand,, immediately wonder; "Is this person a threat & going to shoot me or anybody else?"

It's tragic that an innocent homeowner has been killed,, by all appearances by accident.

But,, when the anti-gunners want to spout stuff like; "Only cops should have guns,, because they are trained" you can calmly counter with; "I'm trained,, and shoot more often then 85% of the cops in this country. And it's a fact that cops have made mistakes & killed innocent people."

Things to think about.
 

Doc Holliday

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'After You Shoot', by Alan Korwin is a must-read for every gun owner. ISBN 978-1-889632-26-1, Bloomfield Press

The best advice they give is to call 911 after the situation is under control, then only say "I've just survived an attack in my home, please send police and an ambulance to (address)"...then HANG UP and call your lawyer right away, don't answer it when 911 calls back, either.
 

wolfee

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Local TV will alledgedly be covering an Aurora press conference this morning. The Chief has declared that social media is not accurate. We'll see. Officer who did the shooting dropped another citizen less than 3 weeks ago that was (apparently) a good shooting.
 

pisgah

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It is right to get all the facts before making any judgement over a situation like this. Someone very dear to me still ponders over his shooting of German soldier 70+ years ago. The man had dropped his weapon and surrendered, but made a sudden move that my loved one, in a split second and with no thought but to survive, interpreted as a grab for a gun. He instantly shot the man dead -- as, IMO, he rightly should have. But -- there was no weapon.
 

contender

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I spoke with my son today,, (He's LEO,) and he stated that the 911 caller was a FEMALE,, and SHE described the attacker/intruder as a male. So the responding LEO may have figured the victim was female, while the attacker was the male.

As we so often say; "The devil is in the details."
 

pete44ru

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.

My thoughts & prayers are for the deceased homeowner/veteran & his family.

There, but for the Grace of God, go I...…… :cry:

There will always be Monday morning quarterbacking, but things can be, and usually are, quite different when one's acting in the moment.


.
 

Jimbo357mag

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I heard the police explain on tv that when confronted the man was given several commands over about 10-15 seconds to drop his gun, but he did not comply, so they shot him.
 

Mobuck

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"I heard the police explain on tv that when confronted the man was given several commands over about 10-15 seconds to drop his gun, but he did not comply, so they shot him."

That would be contrary to the witness account of multiple shots fired BEFORE the announcement of "POLICE" was heard inside the house.
 

CGDustDevil

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vito said:
What do you think is the best way to avoid this outcome should you ever need to defend your family within your home?

This actually happens more frequently than one might think these days. The only way to avoid the possibility of this happening is to NOT call the cops until the business is done and you have control of the scene. There is no other way, other than simply going limp and let the cops do it all. If the cops show up in the middle of your gun fight, you're liable to be shot. Period. But if you're gonna let the cops do it, do remember that homeowners who call the police are sometimes shot for having a cell phone in their hand! Doesn't even need to be a firearm. It's risky business at best.

For that reason - My wife has strict instructions to wait for my "OK" before calling any LE agencies if we get into a jam. (Or obviously if I'm down she can call an AMBULANCE first, then the cops if there's still a need! )

I just read a story and saw a video of an incident in California where a bunch of cops all stood around yelling at a guy who was exhibiting bizarre behavior and had a butcher knife in his hand for an extraordinarily long time before the guy migrated over to an innocent lady and took her as a hostage. Once he did that and put the knife to her throat, members of the squad opened fire, letting loose with 18 shots, killing the suspect AND the hostage. (That's how ya git 'er done) Watching the video, it's clear to me that the guy was NOT gonna comply with instructions to drop the weapon LONG before he went near the frightened woman. Why they let the guy wander around, and let him get close to the woman is anyone's guess.

Whatever the case - I don't want 'em anywhere near my trouble until I'm ready for 'em. They won't kill the people they oughta, and DO kill the ones they oughtn't much too frequently for my liking. In fact, my 2 neighbors out here know I carry, and they text/call me before THEY call the sheriff in order to make sure I'm not in a situation where I might be mistaken for the bad guy and killed for having a sidearm. I'm the only one out here who carries, and we're fairly remote. They know I answer the door with a weapon on and are very respectful of my caution. It's a good idea to have those discussions with your neighbors BEFORE a situation presents itself!

Regards, Pete
 

hittman

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CGDustDevil said:
vito said:
What do you think is the best way to avoid this outcome should you ever need to defend your family within your home?

she can call an AMBULANCE first, then the cops

Just curious ..... y'all in AZ call different numbers for ambulance and police?

Here 911 gets you either or both ..... depending on what the dispatcher determines best.
 

CGDustDevil

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hittman said:
CGDustDevil said:
vito said:
What do you think is the best way to avoid this outcome should you ever need to defend your family within your home?

she can call an AMBULANCE first, then the cops

Just curious ..... y'all in AZ call different numbers for ambulance and police?

Here 911 gets you either or both ..... depending on what the dispatcher determines best.

I'm sure it works that way in town. It might even work like that out here, but I won't use 911 for the very reason you suggest regarding the dispatcher's involvement. (And for other reasons involving tracking, etc.) I like to decide who needs to be called. We have pre-programmed numbers and test each out periodically to make sure we know who's at the other end!

We are on a subscription service for fire/ambulance. We get to pay taxes for city service, but they won't come here. Hence the 500 bucks a year additional subscription fee. (grumblemumble) But the Regional Fire/Rescue number gets us what we need for medical stuff or fires/wrecks, etc. We have another number for the Sheriff in the unlikely event we need LEO here, and yet another number for the Casa Grande police who have jurisdiction out by our mailboxes a half mile or so away.

Regards, Pete
 

redhawker

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Mobuck said:
"I heard the police explain on tv that when confronted the man was given several commands over about 10-15 seconds to drop his gun, but he did not comply, so they shot him."

That would be contrary to the witness account of multiple shots fired BEFORE the announcement of "POLICE" was heard inside the house.

Don't know 'cause I wasn't there and have read nothing more then what was posted here an this but could those shot before the announcement of "police" been the homeowner dropping the bad guy?
 

CGDustDevil

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redhawker said:
Mobuck said:
"I heard the police explain on tv that when confronted the man was given several commands over about 10-15 seconds to drop his gun, but he did not comply, so they shot him."

That would be contrary to the witness account of multiple shots fired BEFORE the announcement of "POLICE" was heard inside the house.

Don't know 'cause I wasn't there and have read nothing more then what was posted here an this but could those shot before the announcement of "police" been the homeowner dropping the bad guy?

Therein lies one of the major controversies! The timeline & details I've read indicate the homeowner shot the naked bad guy before the cops arrived. but the police are saying that they heard gunshots from inside the home when they arrived on the scene. I understand that the wife told dispatch that the attacker was naked, and gave other details about how her husband and the boy's father were dressed. It is unclear whether those details got to the officers on patrol.

The homeowner was inside the house, the cop outside. Not understanding that the homeowner had dispatched the attacker, the cop fired into the house from outside and took down the homeowner, who died at the hospital shortly thereafter. The body cam footage should clear that up, but I personally won't be surprised if it turns out that there's something wrong with the cams or data! (As so frequently is the case)

The homeowner's wife apparently had called the cops while the struggle was going on, but before Grandpa went and got a firearm. The naked bad guy was after the couple's 11 year old grandchild, and was trying to drown him in the bath tub. The naked guy beaned the homeowner with an object from inside the bathroom, and that's when the homeowner went and got his handgun. The homeowner's wife was also injured in the attack, and apparently has undergone some sort of surgery. I don't know the details of her injuries or whether they are gunshot-related.

As I posted in an earlier response, I've instructed my wife to NOT call the cops if we're being attacked, for the precise reason that may have gotten this guy killed. I cannot stress enough the importance of making response plans ahead of time. Once the action begins, there's so much that we, as individuals, lose control over.

Regards, Pete
 

mistermills357

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Police said when they arrived the scene was “chaotic and violent” and officers heard gunshots from inside the home at 10609 E. Montview Blvd.
Officers then encountered an armed man and an officer shot the man, killing him, police said.
Police then searched the house and found a second man dead inside and a child suffering serious injuries. The child was taken to an area hospital and is expected to survive, police said.


That ain't good enough, and I don't care if it was chaotic; the survivors should sue for multiple millions of dollars. Let the court system work it out, because the cops are on real shakey ground here. They won't be charged with negligence, because they seldom are; so the survivors need to make things right, and do it themselves, in court.
 

pisgah

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Anyone who forms a judgement at this time is blowing out of the lower end of his piehole.

The more reported facts that come out the more it becomes clear that this was, indeed, the sort of thing that could, and will, go bad from time to time. Ask anyone who has really, truly been on the sharp end of the spear, and you will know -- the best plan in the world goes out the window at the first shot.

So, what to do? Call the cops ASAP and pray they respond in the right manner, or fight it out to the bitter end, then call them -- if you can.

And there's the rub -- are YOU going to realize you are under armed attack and NOT want any potential help to be either there or on their way? Me? I'd call in artillery, if I could.

Another question, and I think one very pertinent to this discussion: On the same day or in the same week that this incident took place how many similar -- potentially identical -- incidents occurred around the country? And of those, how many resulted in police shooting a homeowner? True -- one is too many. But in an imperfect world, I will take the odds of calling the cops, and dial 911 ASAP -- before, during or after the fight.
 

Mobuck

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"And there's the rub -- are YOU going to realize you are under armed attack and NOT want any potential help to be either there or on their way? Me? I'd call in artillery, if I could."
Unless you've actually been so desperate as to call in artillery on your own position, I wouldn't use this analogy. Calling the cops is darned near as risky as hoping you don't get blown up by your own artillery.

"And of those, how many resulted in police shooting a homeowner? True -- one is too many. But in an imperfect world, I will take the odds of calling the cops"
Even once is too many so why risk it.

Given the expected response time to my location, it's mostly irrelevant. I will assure everyone that should I have a home defense situation with an unknown number of aggressors, I'm not going to disarm and place myself outside of cover just because I hear Barney Fife coming.
 

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