PC4 Accuracy

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SharpsShtr

Bearcat
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
3
halfmoonclip":2bi1dlzu said:
. . . it's hard to make a case for civilians shooting in anger beyond 25 yds, so it's a non issue. Let your pistol carbine be what it is. Moon

Okay????? If someone is attempting to do you harm they by definition pick the range, not you. When that happens you have to defend yourself with what you have in your hands be that a "target rifle", a pistol, or a Ruger PC4 carbine. The comment about a "civilian" is horse-hockey. We all know that the police most likely won't be there when we need them so self-defense in most cases is justified. Anyway, shooting in anger was never mentioned in this thread until you brought it up. el-Bandito320 was just trying to get actual average group sizes at 25, 50, and 100 yards from people. "Let your pistol carbine be what it is" isn't much help.


Matt
 

halfmoonclip

Bearcat
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
84
SharpsShtr":2psa5imj said:
halfmoonclip":2psa5imj said:
. . . it's hard to make a case for civilians shooting in anger beyond 25 yds, so it's a non issue. Let your pistol carbine be what it is. Moon

Okay????? If someone is attempting to do you harm they by definition pick the range, not you. When that happens you have to defend yourself with what you have in your hands be that a "target rifle", a pistol, or a Ruger PC4 carbine. The comment about a "civilian" is horse-hockey. We all know that the police most likely won't be there when we need them so self-defense in most cases is justified. Anyway, shooting in anger was never mentioned in this thread until you brought it up. el-Bandito320 was just trying to get actual average group sizes at 25, 50, and 100 yards from people. "Let your pistol carbine be what it is" isn't much help.


Matt
Matt, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I, personally, would not care to 'splain, in a court of law, why I engaged a bad guy 100 yds away. In my part of the world, engaging a DEER at 100yds is somewhat of a challenge. But, if you're really worried about longer ranges, perhaps you need an AR carbine, perhaps with optics.
If you check my post above, I gave a rough idea how I can shoot mine offhand...when I get home from my travels, I'll see if I have some actual targets. But, as noted, benching a PC isn't what they do best.
Also, a pistol caliber carbine is what it is, and that is part of the decision making process in getting one.
Moon
 

SharpsShtr

Bearcat
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
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3
halfmoonclip":2yzq7rcz said:
Matt, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I, personally, would not care to 'splain, in a court of law, why I engaged a bad guy 100 yds away. In my part of the world, engaging a DEER at 100yds is somewhat of a challenge. But, if you're really worried about longer ranges, perhaps you need an AR carbine, perhaps with optics.
If you check my post above, I gave a rough idea how I can shoot mine offhand...when I get home from my travels, I'll see if I have some actual targets. But, as noted, benching a PC isn't what they do best.
Also, a pistol caliber carbine is what it is, and that is part of the decision making process in getting one.
Moon

Someone shoots at you from whatever distance, be it 10 yards or 50 yards or 100 yards, and you'd be thinking at that time about how you're going to explain defending yourself?

Let's try an example. Your at the range with your trusty PC4 shooting at 100 yards, letting it be what it can be. You walk down to look at the target and because the are some questionable characters on the range you carry your trusty PC4 carbine with you. As you approach the target the unsavory types start shooting at you. There you are, 100 yards of open ground with nothing to hide behind. You A) start thinking about what to do because you're worried about that the court of law would think, or B) drop to a knee or prone position and return fire. You can't change the conditions of the test, they choose it for you. Better hope that the carbine's feeling like a Marine that day. BTW, some years ago there was a shootout that killed a bunch of FBI agents. The Bag Guys got their guns and cars by killing some folks at a range and steeling said guns & cars, so this isn't an unbelievable scenario.

I myself am not worried about longer ranges as I have weapons that can handle it quite well and will buy an AR, scoped or otherwise, right after I start hitting myself on the head with a ball peen hammer.

Bandit320 just needs some help. I have shot this rifle, it looks brand new, beautiful rifling, a beautiful crown, and no obvious defects. Having shot it with AND without a scope I can say that I could throw it 100 yards more accurately than it currently shoots. There has to be something wrong with this rifle and surely someone out there can help Bandit320 get it to an acceptable level of accuracy.


Matt
 

halfmoonclip

Bearcat
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
84
SharpShtr, if your range is that rough, better find a new range...
It is also a pretty unlikely scenario, even if it did actually happen, once.
Would I shoot back? Well of course. I'd also get flat on my belly to do it.
I've also tried to give the OP some useful advice. If it wasn't indeed helpful, that is what it is as well. If his carbine shoots that badly, there sure as hell is something wrong with it.
Do be careful with that ball peen. :wink:
Moon out
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
8,989
Location
Greenville, SC: USA
I think the real point (putting aside all the attack of the zombie scenarios) is to try and shoot a certain rifle or short gun as well as possible....

The original question was about this PC4 and why the poster could shoot his Highpoint much better. I don't know,

I'd shoot the PC4 on a bench rest with different ammo and get a feel for the problem. Next let someone else shoot it the same.

then determine if it is the rifle or the shooter and go from there.
 

Phila PD

Bearcat
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
29
Hello All!

Just wanted to weigh in that I own or have access to several 9mm & .40S&W carbines made by Ruger, Hi-Point, Kel-Tec and Colt. Just a month ago I decided to use some premium defensive loadings and fire all the carbines from my strap in, remote trigger shooting rest to remove all human error and to see which carbine would give the best combat accuracy out to 150yds. Now I just want to state up front that I do not have any hidden agenda to make one manufacturer look any better then the others so I will give a brief synopses on what transpired that day. I fired several 5 shot groups from each carbine and counted the hit/miss rate.

Carbines Used,

Ruger PC-9 9mm
Ruger PC-4 .40S&W
Hi-Point 995 9mm
Hi-Point 4095 .40S&W
Kel-Tec Sub-2000 9mm
Kel-Tec Sub-2000 .40S&W
Colt Car-9 9mm

All carbines have 16" barrels and are stock factory builds.

Ammunition Used,

Federal 115gr H/P Classic BP-9 (Which is considered the most accurate factory 9mm loading.)
Federal 115gr H.P Classic BP-9LE +P+
CCI/Speer 124gr +P GoldDolt H/P (Classic L/E Defensive loading)
CCI/Speer 165gr .40 S&W Lawman FMJ (Widely used Training load)
CCI/Speer 165gr .40S&W GoldDot H/P (Classic L/E Defensive loading)

While I did not shoot for target group size but more of what is called Combat Accuracy which I consider a 12" Wide by 14" Tall steel metal plate. The aiming point for all carbines was -3" inches from the very top of the Plate and all guns were zeroed dead on at 100yds. Plates were repainted after each load/range was changed.

Results,

Ruger PC-9 and the Hi-Point 995 carbines had the same results with the 9mm Federal BP-9 & Federal BP-9LE +P+

50yds (100% Hit rate) 100yds (100% Hit Rate) 150yds (100% Hit Rate) (The Hi-Point 995 really liked the Federal BP-9LE with the smallest cluster of hits at all ranges)

CCI/Speer 50yds (100% Hit Rate) 100yds (100% Hit Rate) 150yds (100% Hit Rate)

Kel-Tec Sub-2000 9mm (Only Federal BP-9 and CCI/Speer GoldDot used as Kel-Tec does not recommend +P+ ammunition) 50yds (100% Hit Rate) 100yds (100% Hit Rate) (All rounds barely stayed on the target at 100yds) 150yds (25% Hit Rate) (Hits were all over the plate Poor Accuracy at this distance with both loads used)

Colt Car-9 50yds (100% Hit Rate) 100yds (100% Hit Rate) 150rds (100% Hit rate) (All Three 9mm ammo's used)

Ruger PC-4 50yds (100% Hit rate) 100yds (85% Hit Rate) Strange side to side misses which I can not account for with no found problems with rest or ammunition) 150yds (50% Hit Rate) (Same Problem as the 100yd results)

Hi-Point 4095 50yds (100% Hit Rate) 100yds (100% Hit Rate) 150yds (90% Hit Rate) (It appears the 10% that missed just barely missed the plate hitting low about "1 inch marked by a cardboard frame a round the plate.) (All 150yd hits were very low on the plate in the bottom 1/4 area)

Kel-Tec Sub-2000 .40S&W 50yds (100% Hit Rate) 100yds (60% Hit Rate) (Misses were on all sides of the Plate) 150yds (15% Hit Rate) (Same as 100yd Misses)

Looking at the group sizes during the shoot I have to say the Hi-Point was the winner in the 9mm category with the Colt Car-9, Ruger PC-9 and the Kel-Tec bring up the rear. The .40S&W shoot I was surprised by the poor results at 100yds with the Ruger PC-4 and the Kel-Tec Sub-2000, the Hi-Point did a decent job probably only needing a slight elevation adjustment at 150yds to keep all shoots on target.

Since the Test I have traded the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 .40S&W away and will be shipping the Ruger PC-4 back to Ruger for a once over to see if they can improve the accuracy. While we all know the carbines tested are no target guns they should at least possess basic combat accuracy at a reasonable range in which one may use them in a self defense or a club three gun event.

I plan on running another test one which measures group size and uses a great variety of ammunition in the future.
 

SharpsShtr

Bearcat
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
3
Phila PD,

A very well done and informative writeup. I'm looking forward to your next report. If Ruger finds out anything about your PC-4 Carbine, please let us know. Thanks,


Matt
 

donw

Bearcat
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
71
Location
in the hi desert of southern california between te
i have the PC9 and find that it's very capable of good accuracy within 50 yards...depending on what you call "accurate"

a 'tack driver' it is not...but it is definitely NOT to be underrated. for "combat accuracy" it fits the bill.

like said before, if you hand load and use a good scope and tailor them, it could probably be a VERY accurate combination. (to be honest, i haven't tried to "tailor" a load for mine as i find store bought ammo to be more than satisfactory...sounds like a good project, though.)

i have a store bought box of American Eagle, 9x19, 115 grain, FMJ that's listed at 1160 fps. shot from the 16" tube, it will produce some higher velocities, I'm certain...and, it functions perfectly in the PC9 with no FTF, FTD or FTE.

my speer #12 loading manual lists that as fitting into .357 mag velocities...if that is considered as being "anemic", then maybe a .44 mag, .45 LC, or maybe even a 45-70 should be considered.

for small game, within the parameters of the 'accuracy factor' (less than 100 yards) it should work fine; i would not hesitate to use it for small game. :shock:

IMO, FWIW...the 9x19 is highly underrated as a pistol or carbine cartridge. but the key here is to keep in mind, it is NOT a long range cartridge. :? 8)

the late Col. Jeff Cooper said "firepower is not how many shots you put in the air, but WHERE you put that power".

another fact that seems to be overlooked about the 9x19 is that it was/is used VERY successfully in SMG's worldwide; the Uzi, MP9, the British Sten, and the famous German Schmeisser machine pistol are but a few examples...and isn't it odd that most of the worlds military and law enforcement use the 9x19 in one platform or another as their primary sidearm? the U.S. military included.

incidentally, i don't remember which forum it is on, but the designer of the PC9/4 said he designed it to be a 60 yard carbine...he went by the name of "coffee pot".

i also have the P95DC as a "companion" as they share magazines...that will serve as a plus if the need ever arises.

JMO... :) :) :)
 

Rix86

Bearcat
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
70
coffee pot was on here.

My pc4 will do a sub 2 inch group at about 30 yards, with the giant aperature in the ghost ring.

I might have to scope the thing just to see wha it will really do.
 

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