OT-Problem with Cimarron Firearms Co.

[ejc]

I purchased a Cimarron Bisley revolver in 45 Colt. The first time I fired it, it was grouping very poorly. After I got home and cleaned the gun, I slugged the barrel and it measured .458 inch( should be .451-.452 for 45 Colt). I shipped it to Cimarron and included a slug from the barrel with it. Two months later I sent an e-mail inquiring if they had an estimate of when the gun would be returned to me. I got a response that they had fired the gun and got a five shot group of 2 7/8 inch at 10 yds. Using Black Hills ammo and wanted to know what ammo I had used. I responded with the ammo I used but then explained that I had not returned the gun because of inaccuracy but because the barrel groove diameter was too large and asked if they had measured the barrel. Shortly I got a call from a Cimarron VP who called to talk at me not with me. He appeared angry and told me about the group size they had shot, that there was nothing wrong with the gun, it would be shipped back to me the next day, and if I had any further questions that I needed to address them to him. The implication was that the group size they got when they fired the gun is ample proof that the barrel is not oversize. I find that to be an interesting technical approach to determining a handgun's groove diameter.

For two weeks the gun did not ship until I called and asked to speak to the president of the company. I then received a phone call from the shipping clerk giving me the tracking number of the shipment.

When the gun returned there was nothing with it to give any indication that they had measured the barrel. I took it to the gunsmith at Gander Mountain and asked him to measure the groove diameter of the barrel and give me a written statement of his findings which confirmed the .458 dimension.

I sent a fax to the president of the company going over everything that had transpired and included the statement from the gunsmith. I had not received a response in 11 days so I sent another fax telling him how disappointed I was and that I would not contact them again. I'll just order a replacement barrel and get it replaced and chalk this up to experience.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Does your experience agree with a 2-7/8" group at ten yards? Apparently he was telling you that is the size groups they expect from the gun, and they consider it to be acceptable, regardless of bore size or anything else.

Sad, but not uncommon.

 

[powder smoke]

What make you think the new barrel will be any different from the original? I don't know much about the Cimarron but it would seem to me that they make them all the same size. I'd look for an aftermarket one.

Boy that is the worst customer service story I've ever heard, even the president of the company wasn't concerned about customer satisfaction. Phil

 

[ejc]

Ale-8(1), every other handgun that i own will shoot better than 2 7/8 inch groups at 25 yds. They didn't say that the group they shot met their criteria, they told me that the barrel did not measure what I said it did, eventhough they never measured it themselves.

Powder Smoke, I do not believe that all of their handgun barrels measure .458. These guns are built bu Uberti. I have another Uberti made revolver that measures .451. Perhaps one day someone picked up a 45 cal rifle rifling tool to use on handgun barrels by mistake and a few got out that way.

 

[brianjp]

My goodness, that sounds like a crappy experience with their executives. I have always wanted that cute little Cimarron Thunderer with the 3 1/2 inch barrel, but now you've made me pause to think long and hard about it.

Let us know what the new barrel turns out to be.

 

[ejc]

brianjp, it was not my intent by posting this experience to get anyone to stop buying their firearms. I suspect that 95% or better of the guns they sell do not require warranty work so it is unlikely that you would experience what I did.

I do not have a problem with the guns they sell, just how I was treated when I did have a problem. I consider the Uberti made weapons as diamonds in the rough. When I buy one, I smooth up inside of the frame, adjust the timing, and put in reduced power springs. When I get done, they work about as nice as my Colt SAA. I get a lot of satisfaction in doing the work to improve them.

Go buy the Thunderer if you want it.

 

[contender]

Gee, I guess that's why I buy Rugers. I won a Uberti Cattleman at a NRA even a few years ago. I never left the building with it. I swapped it for a stainless Bisley to another attendee. I love the Bisley, and he wound up having me chase down 2 more of those guns for him. He said one was a piece of crap, but the other two were nice.
Ruger, rugged reliable American made firearms.

 

[Big Bubba]

With those barrel groove demensions, maybe you have a .45/70 Short! I would be irate too.

 

[ejc]

Guys, this afternoon I received a call from the parts/shipping person at Cimarron who told me they would have the gun picked up and sent back to them so they could remeasure(?) the barrel and that they would rebarrel it if it is out of spec.

I'll update you when it returns.

 

[Hokie73]

Interesting. A few years ago I just had a couple of questions and I wanted to order some spare parts (screws, cylinder bolts, cylinder pins). The president called me back that day, and answered all my questions, and we had a nice chat. A few days later I got everything I wanted with an invoice, and from the initials on the form it looked like the president pulled the parts for me.
I had another instance where the cylinder bolt stop slots were too wide, and they sent me a new cylinder, with the paperwork to return the original one in the same shipping box. The replacement cylinder was marked with the last 3 digits of my serial number, and fit perfectly.
I have always found Cimarron's service to be their advantage over the other Uberti sellers. I guess everything changes.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Interesting story. I have a Cimarron Cattleman chambered for 45 Colt. I bought it used a number of years ago. I had never slugged the barrel, so just out of interest I went downstairs and slugged it. .451, right on the money. I'm not sure how old this one is, I bought it used a few years ago.

Now, not to excuse Uberti or Cimarron, but a lot of gun manufacturers today do not make their own barrels. They buy barrel blanks that are already rifled. Then they cut the blanks to length to make individual barrels out of them, and do whatever exterior contouring is necessary to make a finished barrel. So the inside rifling has never been touched by the gun manufacturer. I don't know if Uberti buys barrel blanks or makes their own. I have read that Ruger does buy blanks, then cuts them down, but I don't have any proof of that. The most common length for barrel blanks is 3 feet. They get chopped down to whatever length is necessary.

So I'm kind of wondering if maybe a 45-70 barrel did accidentally get chopped up to make the barrel of your Cimarron. If so, there are probably several others just like it floating around someplace.

 

[Hawgleg44]

Living in MA, we can't buy any Colt SAA replicas if they weren't here in state on or before 10-21-98, and none are considered "compliant" here. I've wanted one for years now, but have been unable to find any, until recently.

The first I found about a month ago was an Uberti imported by American Arms. It's their "Regulator" model, in .45 Colt, 4-3/4" barrel with a nickel plated gripframe. Other than it shooting way off to the left (I regulated the front sight and it shoots fine now), it's been perfect, and very accurate, too, with my reloads. I haven't shot any factory ammo through it.

Then I came across another "Regulator", this time NIB, same 4-3/4" barrel length, but this time with 2 cylinders, .44 Special and .44-40, and with a brass gripframe. It shoots equally well with my .44 Special reloads, but still, off to the left. Another necessary sight regulation, that I haven't got around to yet. Maybe this week when I can set the vise up at the club.

Now I'm going overboard with them, but just last weekend, I got another Uberti, this time one imported by Cimmaron Arms. It's their "P" Model, with the blackpowder style frame, .45 Colt, 4-3/4" barrel with a blued triggerguard. Damn thing shoots off to the left, again!

My first one broke the hand. American Arms is no longer importing Uberti's, so I called Cimmaron Arms for parts. From what they told me, and Uberti imported by one company isn't always the same as one imported by someone else. I was ready to order doubles of several wearable parts to keep on hand from them, an order that would have been over $100. But, instead of the just selling the parts to me, hoping they would fit, they gave me the number to VTI Gun Parts and said they should have the American Arms parts in stock, and they did. I spent over $120 ordering spare parts with them.

So far, I'm happy with Cimmaron's parts department. I'm going to order some spares for my newest Model P from them. I'm really surprised with the way they are treating you over this. I would have expected a gun company to slug the barrel after being told it's that much oversize. A group that measures over 2" at 10 yards is pretty unimpressive, IMO, and they should definately do something about it.

Let us know how it turns out.

 

[ejc]

My Bisley revolver returned yesterday. They replaced the barrel. The new barrel measures .451 inch groove diameter. The only thing I am a little disappointed about is the barrel/cylinder gap which is between .009 and .010 which is a little large. However, I don't see it as a problem since the small velocity lose it will cause doesn't concern me in this gun.

I will try to shoot it this weekend.

 

[Anonymous]

I ordered a Cimarron Man With No Name SA pistol through a gun dealer back in Feb. 2010 and haven't gotten it Yet. Called Cimarron and inquried about when might the dealer be getting these guns. Wow...the person I talked to (didn't get his name) was not the most pleasant person to talk to, so I decided to say thanks and end the call. Anyone have any dealings with this company know how to get a pleasant response from them? I know that the guns are made over sea and may take a longtime....but six months and counting.
jer :roll:

 

[CraigC]

I had some issues with a brand new 1860 Richards Transition model cartridge conversion nearly two years ago. They were very pleasant and helpful on the phone and promptly replaced the sixgun with a new one. Unlike Ruger, they did not make me go through the hassle of a dealer transfer and shipped the replacement gun directly to me.

 

[J Miller]

Cimarron Home Page: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/
Cimarron Grove Dia.: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/boregr ... Uberti.htm

Parts for most Italian made guns: https://www.vtigunparts.com/

ejc,
According to Cimarron's own specs that .451" GD barrel is out of specs. And .009" is close to being or is out of specs as well. Most info I've read hard copy and web state .004" to .008" B/C gap.

I guess see how it shoots first then go from there.

I agree with the poster that said someone took a 45-70 barrel and made a pistol barrel out of it.

Joe

 

[Yosemite Sam]

jslough welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Really sorry. I always thought the MWNN conversion gun would be really cool, as would one of the Richards Transition models. But I'm primarily a target shooter, and never could talk myself into (another) fixed sight cowboy gun (had a Peitta SAA clone for a while, as well as a Vaquero).

Never even thought about their customer service. Thanks for the heads up!

-- Sam

 

[Hammerdown77]

ejc,

Sorry if I missed this in one of the other postings, but did you ever deal directly with Hill County (or maybe it was Country) Gunsmithing, the folks who do the warranty work for Cimarron? I recently just went through a bit of a hassle when I sent a Model P back to them for a canted front sight. Took almost 5 months to get it back, but it looks like they got the barrel indexed correctly. I always dealt directly with the gunsmith (that is, until he just up and retired and took all his stuff with him...).

Did you buy the gun at Larry's or Gander? The reason I ask is because it seemed like Cimarron was unresponsive on getting my gun back to me, until I talked to Larry and John down at Larry's, and they got things moving again. They said normally Cimarron is very good on the customer service side of things and that this was unusual. I'd feel better if I had Larry dealing with them directly, than some manager at Gander.

 

[sdoyl123]

Glad they finaaly fixed the revolver. I just picked up a EMF Dakota (uberti)in 44-40 and so far have been happy with it. Its not a Ruger but it is pretty nice gun.
I was looking at one of the 44-40's with birdshead grip but I am alittle nervous about buying without seeing. We get see alot of Uberti made guns and some are great and some are weak.

 

[Will Farr]

I bought a Cimarron 1872 Open Top 44 Spl a couple of years ago, worked up some loads, had some great fun shooting it. Beautiful pistol. Have fired maybe 500 rounds through it with absolutely no problems. It even worked out that my most accurate handload shot dead-on at 25 yards with no filing or tinkering of any kind. There is no trace of a drag ring around the cylinder. I am very happy with it. Guess I was lucky.