OT: I Have a 358 Win...Why Would I need a 350 Rem Mag?

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Trey Whitley

Single-Sixer
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Oct 17, 2006
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158
This isn't exactly a Ruger question, but I know many of you use the 350 Remington Magnum round and I want your opinions.

I'm a huge fan of 35-caliber rifles. First one was a Winchester Model 1895 in .35 WCF (basically a 405 WCF necked down to take the 358 bullets) and since then I own or have owned .351 Winchesters, .35 Remingtons, .348 WCFs, and .358 WCFs.

Never had a 35 Whelan or a 350 Rem Mag, but looked hard at the 350 RM when I bought my Frontier rifle in 358.

It's obviously a buyer's market for rifles right now and there's some good 350's showing up, especially in the Custom Shop versions of the Remington Model 7. What would they do that my Frontier won't? And assuming I can get over my current inability to buy a push-feed rifle, how bad would I hate the Model 7's magazine length?
 

mattsbox99

Hunter
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Jan 12, 2009
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The 350 RM beats the 358 Win by a couple hundred FPS pretty easily, but it carries a bit more recoil too. Being a 35 caliber fan should be good enough reason to want one. I like mine.
 

mike7mm08

Buckeye
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Mar 14, 2005
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The only real advantage is with heavy bullets. But those heavy bullets are not much advantage unless you can load them longer than 2.800. Otherwise you eat up a lot of powder space and velocities are nothing special. The model 7 limits you to 2.800. If you can find a Ruger M77 MKII in 350 you can go nearly 2.900. I am a 35 nut which is the reason I have 3 358 5 350s and 1 35 whelen so I really don't see why you would need a reason to buy the 350 just but it :D
 

BlkHawk73

Hunter
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Dec 30, 1999
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4,394
Be it paper or game, the target won't really know the difference. It's more about "want" rather than "need" after a while. Variety is good. You don't eat the same thing for supper every night do you?
 

350Rem

Bearcat
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
83
Let me tell you, the 350RM is just plain FUN to shoot! With a Limbsaver recoil pad, recoil is no worse than a 30-06. It has a wonderful resounding BOOM when fired and it just feels right. Did quite a number on a couple of Northern Michigan whitetails this year too!!!
 

buckeyeshooter

Blackhawk
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Nov 8, 2004
Messages
682
realistically, there is little 'on game' difference between the 35 whelen, 350 remington mag and 358. The 35 remington does fall a bit short of the others. The advantage of the whelen is it handles bullets of 250 grains and more a bit easier because of the larger case.
 

Trey Whitley

Single-Sixer
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
158
Okay...I'm still not convinced. That may be because I'm getting ready to have a 9.3x62 barrel made for my takedown Empire Rifle 98, giving me a big boost in the 35-caliber range, or it may be because I can't find more than ~100 fps difference when I'm comparing 225-grain and 250-grain velocities in commercially loaded ammo.

Which brings me to my next question: is 2,400+ fps possible with 250-grain bullets in the 358 WCF? This morning I ordered a few boxes of Double Tap 358 ammunition that claims 2,425 fps with a 250-grain soft point; that's also the same range Conley Precision shows for several 250-grain loads (2,415 to 2,420 fps).

HOWEVER...that's also about the same velocity range Conley shows for the 350 RM using 250-grain bullets (2,390 to 2,525 fps), and faster than Ramshot said I could get in the 358 with TAC or X-Terminator (~2,300 fps). Which I thought was producing some of the higher velocities these days.

To sum it up, what I'm seeing is about the same velocity and one additional round in the mag when I'm carrying the 358. Am I overlooking something?
 

rugerjunkie

Buckeye
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Mar 15, 2005
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I don't know if you're missing anything or not. I have two 350's but no experience with the others that are mentioned. I am learning right along with you on this thread.

The one thing I see is buckeyeshooter saying the Whelen has the advantage because of the larger case. I have been wrong before but , I thought the 350 had 1 to 2 grains more capacity? I would think the real limiting factor would be OAL and where you can set it depending on your rifles magazine. I have only loaded as heavy as a 225gr in mine so I don't know.

I do know that a 225gr Sierra SP moving at 2650 fps will put a large broadside doe at 200 yards flat on the ground as if it were just hit by my F-150!! The F-150 has more kills than the 350 mag by the way! :shock: Maybe I should just leave the guns at home!!

Reading all of this has me thinking my 350 needs to be pulled from the classifieds and put back in the safe.

Jeff
 

Silent Sam

Blackhawk
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Feb 26, 2006
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2400+fps w/ 250gr bullet in a 358? How much barrel? In the end, does it really matter? I get 2450fps chronographed w/ 225 Sierras and Partitions out of a 20" barrel and it is not a hot load. The 350RM and the 35 Whelen case capacity is essentially identical. Do you want to be able to seat bullets out or do you want a short action? With today's bullets it would be tough to argue the advantage of a 250gr bullet over a 225gr. Bear over bait maybe, if you went w/ a roundnose. I wouldn't fret using a 225gr spitzer in that situation either. A 250gr bullet may be better, but there are a lot worse choices than that 225. At the velocities we are dealing with practically all 35 cal rifle bullets of 200-225gr are excellent big game performers. Cup and core works at these velocities. Premiums are available if they give you more warm and fuzzy and they work too. None of them blow up at 1800-2600fps impact velocity and none of them lose any diameter. Penetration will happen. Deer out to 225-250 yds don't stand a chance, broadside or not. Moose typically fall a bit slower but that is true if you are using a 270 or a 375. Haven't personally verified it but I bet the results would be similar with elk. If you can hold on hair out as far as the bullet will reliably expand (250yds or so), what more could you want out of proven killer caliber in a big game rifle? If you feel you need more range then use a 30-06 or better yet, get closer. Inside of 200yds I'd actually prefer a 35 on large big game and that's not a knock on the 06 at all. Speed sells and I think we obsess a bit to much with that 400yd shot that rarely, if ever comes. I am just as guilty as anyone in that respect, but every hunting season that goes by I am less prone to it. The perception of what 35 caliber recoil "must" be doesn't track with reality. The fact is all these are really pussycats for the level of smack they deliver, at least until you get into 358 Norma territory.
To respond to the original question - no, but what does need got to do with it anyway. Personally I think the 358 is the best of the bunch. When it comes to this batch of cartridges the rifle is probably a lot more important than the cartridge. The one you get first or make your first clean kill with is likely to be your favorite regardless of paper ballistics. Confidence is where it's at for hunting and all these 35's deliver.
Sorry for the ranting. I kind of like the 35 caliber.
 

buckeyeshooter

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682
rugerjunkie":2xpcs0nw said:
I don't know if you're missing anything or not. I have two 350's but no experience with the others that are mentioned. I am learning right along with you on this thread.

The one thing I see is buckeyeshooter saying the Whelen has the advantage because of the larger case. I have been wrong before but , I thought the 350 had 1 to 2 grains more capacity? I would think the real limiting factor would be OAL and where you can set it depending on your rifles magazine. I have only loaded as heavy as a 225gr in mine so I don't know.

I do know that a 225gr Sierra SP moving at 2650 fps will put a large broadside doe at 200 yards flat on the ground as if it were just hit by my F-150!! The F-150 has more kills than the 350 mag by the way! :shock: Maybe I should just leave the guns at home!!

Reading all of this has me thinking my 350 needs to be pulled from the classifieds and put back in the safe.

Jeff


Jeff,
The neck of the whelen is longer than the 350 mag. therefore, the bullet will not be pushed as deep into the case, But, you may be correct in that the 350 mag holds an extra grain or two of powder. In thinking on it, I should also mention my 2 350 mags are the limited run Remington Classics and I thinking (have not bothered to pull one to verify) that they are short actions instead of standard length actions, which also might effect my particular situation. My 35 whelen is on a remington 7600 pump.
 

horseshoe

Single-Sixer
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Messages
115
I love my 358 ww and I love my 350 mags. I shoot nothing but 200 grain bullets with some occasional 225's. I load my 77 RS ruger flat bolt pretty hot and it has the weight to subdue the recoil. I load my remington model seven KS 350 mag down to 358 velocities and the recoil is very manageable with the lightweight rifle.

I have a ruger 77R in 358 that is my favorite rifle and deadly accurate but have never shot the 250 grain bullets in it because I do not have a need for them.

I don't need a 350 mag because the 358 ww will do all I need to do but the mystic of the 350 just draws you to it for some reason after you have fired one. Its a little BOOMER.
 

mattsbox99

Hunter
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
3,391
Yes, the Remington 350s are a true short action, so are the Rugers, but they a slight bit longer than the Remingtons.

Nearly every bullet can be shot at the 2.8" OAL, but a few, including the Nosler Accubond, and 225 Barnes TSX need to be loaded at 2.9" and will only fit in the Rugers AFAIK.
 

mike7mm08

Buckeye
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
1,709
The Rugers were built on a shirt action but with a mag box designed and sized for the WSMs. So you in turn can get away with a little extra length.
 

mike7mm08

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mattsbox99":bsk3l39i said:
Considering the Rugers came out more than 20 years before the WSMs I highly doubt that.

I am referring to the latest run of 77 mkII 350s. All they had to do was open up the action slightly to accept the larger magazine box.
The 350s were only produced for a short while to use up the remaining actions after Ruger discontinued the WSMs. On the outside the actions are the same but a standard short action mag box will not fit the 350s and vis versa. I have compared them. Also when I ordered a replacement mag box for my 350 I was told I needed a WSM box and the part came invoiced as such.As far as the previous 350s Ruger produced I cannot say what the mag dimensions are. But the latest production,which you are most likely to see for sale,will have a larger than standard short action box.
 

Silent Sam

Blackhawk
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
728
I don't know anything about the new vs old magazine box differences but Ruger's short action is longer than Remington's and does allows longer OAL. As far as bullet weights go run the numbers and load them up and see what you get. When the 35Whelen, 358Win, and the 350RM came out (obviously not at the same time) bullet choices were a lot more limited. When Remington commercialized the then wildcat 35Whelen bullet choice started to get better. An old favorite was the 220gr Speer which was and still is a good bullet on game but it suffers in the BC department and contributed to the "woods caliber" perception. So did the 250gr bullets of the day that were pretty much all roundnoses. That and the assumption of "heavy" recoil based on a mental comparison w/ 30 caliber, read 308/30-06 recoil kind of sealed the fate of these cartridges as far as popularity. Now don't get me wrong, if you load up one of those Remington carbines in 350RM to full house levels w/ 250gr bullets you will notice the recoil. Magazine articles on the 350RM when it was introduced always spoke to considerable recoil in those lightweight carbines and that didn't help sales either along with the unconventional appearance of those rifles. But I personally don't believe that the 250s give any real advantage over the useable range with any of these cartridges, especially with the 358. Look at the drop and energy numbers with realistic velocities and then do some meaningful penetration/expansion testing with any or all three of these cartridges and decide for yourself. You can get some pretty decent velocities with the 200 grainers but again the BC's of those bullets work against you and you'll give up some penetration. In my opinion lighter bullets have no real purpose in these calibers except maybe plinking loads, but you will definitely have to re-zero. Some of the newer 250s have good BCs but you generally can't push them fast enough to have any advantage downrange over the 225 spitzers which turn out to have pretty good BC numbers. When I started loading for the 358 I initially used Hornady 200gr spitzers primarily out of concern of what recoil would be in a relatively light rifle. I quickly moved up to 225s and that is all I load now. Sierras for practice and whitetails and Partitions for anything heavier and that is a purely cost/confidence decision. Based on my experience the 225gr Sierras are enough bullet but if I'm spending a bunch of money on a moose hunt I'll use the Partitions just because they give me more confidence. I still have a bunch of those 200gr Hornady loads and they are awesome on whitetails but they don't really offer any advantage over the 225s except slightly less recoil. Hardly noticeable to me but recoil is subjective and everyone has there own opinion. The real issue to me with switching bullet weights is the POI change. Make sure you re-zero if you are hunting with different bullet weights. I have my rifle zeroed w/ the 225s just under 3" high at 100yds which puts them right on at about 225yds and a midrange max of 3" inches. With that zero the 200gr loads are a little bit less than 1" high at 100yds. If you were zeroed 2" high at 100yds with the 200s (which is a pretty good zero for that bullet weight btw, the 225s midrange trajectory would run about 5" or maybe a bit more, too much for my taste.
When it comes to the newer premium bullets, I just don't see the need. The Accubonds are good bullets and generally a bit less expensive than Partitions but OAL becomes an issue w/ at least some if not most of the the short actions. Look at Nosler's BC numbers for the 225 Accubond vs the 225 Partition and you might be surprised. I was, the Partition is slightly higher so the only advantage to me would be the slight cost difference. The "X" bullets will have the same OAL issues, cost a lot more and I am not convinced that they will kill any better than a Partition. So for whatever it's worth, that's my opinion.
 

dfletcher

Blackhawk
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
921
I have two 350 Remington Magnums. T/C Encores, one 20" bbl and a 15" braked handgun barrel. Having a very small receiver the rifle is very compact and I can use the heavier stuff with no OAL issues. Regarding the pistol, loaded 110 grain handgun bullets with H322 just barely breaks 3,000 fps and recoil is very light.
 

rugerjunkie

Buckeye
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
1,890
Did anyone take notice to Rugers twist rates on the 350RM? I can't find the info on it anymore but the blued models had a 1:12 and the stainless a 1:14 twist. I checked mine and sure enough they are. That would account for my all-weather liking the lighter bullets and my blued liking the heavier ones. I thought Remington had a 1:16 in both the 350 and the Whelen. They list a 1:16 in the CDL 35 Whelen.

Don't know what this really has to do with the topic but thought I'd throw it out there.
 

mike7mm08

Buckeye
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
1,709
I measured my stainless at 1 in 12. I have not tried heavier than 225 grain sierra game kings and it is scary accurate.
 

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