Old Model flattops...beginning and end

[Ale-8(1)]

My Single-Six convert was shipped in November of 1962, and it has developed the grey coloration on the XR3RED grip frame over the years. I know it's original because my dad's buddy was a "home dealer" and he ordered it for my Christmas present that year. It's just as it was received from Ruger, albiet with several thouand rounds down its tube.

The transitional stuff is always interesting.



PS Thanks for the ship date on 42658 . . . I've updated Bob's List.

 

[chet15]

The ship date is the all important factor for an XR3-RED flattop, but cannot of course be the sole determinate on how it left the factory.
XR3-RED grip frames began showing up on Single-Sixes at the very end of July 1962. Those late shipped .44 flattops (October/November 1962 and later) are also the best candidates to have been shipped with RED grip frames, or even Super Blackhawk cylinders since the .44 Blackhawk frame "cleanup" was nearly complete.
But doing research on .357 Blackhawks, I found that there was a short lapse in production between the highest known true XR3 .357's and the handful of XR3-RED flattops that are known, so ship dates with a high percentage of relative accuracy will help to confirm one way or the other.
Another point...when Ruger began advertising the new protected sight .357, these were also advertised with new XR3-RED shape grip frames. So it is mmy belief that Ruger did their best to make sure if somebody got a new protected sight flattop, it also had the new RED grip frame on it (the same reason 99.9%+ of the all blue Lightweights have round loading gates on them...because they were advertised that way). So would not surprise me if Ruger made sure most of their .357 flattop production was out of the house before assembling the new protected sight guns. This would also explain the shortage of known XR3-RED .357 flattops as compared to known .44 Flattops with RED frames.
Lastly, if somebody has an XR3-RED .357 flattop, the look of those early RED frames would also be a big factor in whether the grip frame could be original to the gun or not. Not only did the RED grip frames have an "ALCOA G" founders mark (used to at least October 1966), but the earliest XR3-RED grip frames also had a terrible anodized finish which appears very thin, and even differently colored.
Chet15

 

[tommygun]

Chet, great stuff. If you have seen Bill's 42658, it does have a very grey frame and fits all the criteria mentioned. It shipped in Nov. 1962. According to your research, when was the lapse in Blackhawk production? December 1962???????

 

[contender]

It's discussions like this that have caused MANY long hours of spirited speculations as to "who what where, how & why?" True answers will probably never be known. However,, having followed this thread,, seeing who has responded with their decades of knowledge & experience,, it is hopefull that this knowledge will be saved & recorded for future collectors to study as well. But,, as noted,, we'll most likely never have totally irreputable proof of the details we seek. We can only add our own thoughts & experience.
I think Bill says it best here;

"It is sad that folks will change things on guns but that is just a fact of life. As a collector who wants 100% original I hate it but its their gun and they can do what they want with it. Like Mike said for a comfort thing or maybe to make a buck. Its up to me to do my homework and make a decision as to a gun's validity.

All of this is just my opinion after many years of studying, chasing and handling a whole bunch of these old Rugers.....and I have had a whole lot more fun doing it!!"

JMO!

 

[tommygun]

Contender I agree! Problem is the narrow community of collectors desire / drives value/price! Supply versus demand. The supply of rare guns and the desire of a handful of collectors creates value. I have tried to to sell hard to find transition 357 blackhawks (which is what I collect) and it is hard to get what I paid for them. Couple that with the fact that it is often hard to verify authenticily and fraud frustrates me to no end. My concern and I am a newbie to this is that documention and all may not mean squat to young people who could care less. I really enjoy this but question the sanity of investing the money in these guns that when all of us old guys are gone these guns may not be worth much to our heirs. It is what it is!!!! May be openong a can of worms here eh?

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Tommy, if you're gonna be a major player in Rugerdom, youre gonna win some and lose some. I'm pretty sure any of the Big Dawgs will tell you that. They got where they are by learning everything they could from "the books" as well as their ongoing communication with each other and lifelong experiences at the shows and on the 'net. There's no sure, certain way to jump in and be on top of it all right away. It's a learning game, and there are no sure things. Nobody knows it all, but there are a few who sure do know a whole bunch. Pay attention. I try to, even though I'm not a "player" in the Big Game.

Hang in there. It's all fun, even if it isn't all profitable.

 

[rugerguy]

you got it Tommy, as you noted and found out at the OGCA and again recently we have been seeing flatop 357 guns, some boxed and some not, sitting on tables and NOT selling.seen two at show recently that sold for under $500 ( I know a guy from the forum here ,bought the one at Medina for $475 and a NICE gun..we've had one for another guy here , 4 digit 44 flatop and it sold for $750..........NEW models are selling for MORE......................
So Dave your "spread" from the early one and the later type 4 is a good point, and a nice try,and as long as YOU are happy with this fact, thats what makes collecting just what it is, the values are just very subjective and whatever the market brings/bears :wink:
you guys don't get out the vote, it may not matter anyway :roll:

 

[Heliman]

Wow, this thread has really morphed into something unplanned......but fun! Let's face it, I am not a true "collector". I DO have collectible guns, but my interest is to have representative samples of desrirable guns, not just Rugers.

I have had a 4 digit Type 1 flattop for a long time and opportunity presented itself on the Type 4 and I bought it. The serial number deal didn't dawn on me until I looked it up in Chad's refence guide. I thought it to be interesting and posted here.

I have learned a lot just by following this thread and am happy that my curiosity spawned a meaningful discussion. Thanks to all you knowledgeable folks for the schooling.........

Dave

 

[radicalrod]

Well it appears it is a GOOD TIME to BUY :lol: :lol: :lol: then cost average out the ones you paid a little TOO MUCH for :roll: :roll: :roll:

TommyG, all collectors have the same thoughts.....the problem is that as a serious collector you are willing to spend the $$$ it takes to get what you desire.....information is a double edged sword....in the beginning we are all happy to find a nice example of each caliber, then we find out they make 3 barrel lengths :lol: , then a little more research tells us they have different ejector rod housings :lol: and on and on for the RUGER MANIAC trapped inside us......for some of us it gets a little out of control :shock: :shock: :shock: there was a time I might have resembled that statement but thanks to the current economics I have been somewhat CURED :!: :!: :!:

Now as for the financial aspect.....I don't worry a whole lot about that as I got wiped out in the market once and figured I was happier with a safe full of guns that I can see and hold anytime I want than letting some fast talking salesmen tell me the market went down and if you just keep doing it you will get your money back..... someday.......and when I am dead and the wife sells them it won't bother me much if she doesn't make a profit on them :lol: :lol: :lol: I wouldn't want her NEW GUY to live too "HIGH ON THE HOG" :roll: :roll: :roll: we all wonder if we are doing the smart thing.....ask the guys that collected "BEENIE BABIES" or "CABBAGE PATCH KIDS" how that worked out :?: :?: :?: if we all knew what we were doing we would sell before the market crashes and buy the day before it skyrockets :shock: :shock: :shock: don't worry there are a lot of us in the same boat :wink: :wink: :wink: JMO....YMMV....RR.

 

[flatgate]

So Ale, 42686 is an XR3 flattop? Why would the factory have installed the newer frame if it were not the end of the XR3 frames? Like many Ruger isues, just does not make logical sense. It is no wonder it is difficult to know what was original and what was tinkered with.

Classic example of the "parts bin theory"...... 8) The assembler's bin of XR3-RED grip frames was getting low. He walks over to the big bins and grabs a handful of grip frames to finish out his day. Lo and behold they were XR-3's.

Just a thought........

flatgate

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Absolutely. It's totally possible to find "late" parts on a gun with an "early" number if that particular gun wasn't assembled and shipped until some time after the rest of the guns in its serial number range. There are many examples of the "late shipped" guns. There was no guarantee that guns were shipped in strict serial number order.

Similarly, guns with "late" serial numbers can be found with "early" parts for just the same "parts bin theory of assembly" . . . some "old" parts got waylaid during the process and finally arrived at the assembly area considerably later than the frame's serial number would indicate.

Logic has nothing to do with it. It's just how it happened. Makes for interesting finds and the related discussions here.

 

[jyo]

At one point I was quite a collector of Old Model Ruger SAs---moved on---sold most---but I kept two---an early 357 Flattop with 4 3/4" barrel 99.5%---I shoot it from time to time, but not too much---very pretty revolver! The other is one of the last 44 Mag. orig Flattop revolvers---somewhere it was also chopped to 4 3/4" nicely (looks like it came from the factory this way)---this gun is about 92-94% and I shoot it a lot with 44 Special reloads (7.5 grains Unique under 240 SWC, about 950 FPS)---I also have a near mint Ruger flap holster for it. This 44 is one of my favorite shooters! Interestingly, this revolver has a ejector rod with the dished end-piece.

 

[ChuckS1]

FWIW, I have 42665, a .357 Flattop with XR3 frame.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Bob's List shows 42665 right there at the end of the Flattops, with a 4-5/8" barrel. I have noted the XR3 grip reference, thanks.

If you happen to know the ship date we'd love to have it.

 

[ChuckS1]

It does have the 4 5/8 barrel. Don't know the ship date, bought it from a member here. There's a thread on it.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Got a link to the thread?