Number 1 Vertical Stringing

[Archer970]

Hi folks. I'm new to the forum and am hoping this post ends up in the right sub-forum and reaches a few Number 1 experts! I need some ideas on how to address vertical stringing with my 223 No. 1V. A little history first: this is a late model 1-V with a Ruger barrel. The barrel has been inspected by a BR gunsmith and was given the green light. The barrel currently floats, but I have tried different "fulcrums" between the forearm and barrel to establish different nodes, with no success. Trigger pull is set at a crisp 1 pound. The scope is a Leupold VX3 6-18 X40 MM with Leupold rings. The rings have been lapped and all screws torqued appropriately. I've also tried another scope and still get the stringing. I've tried MANY precision hand loads and my best results come from a somewhat mild 3,100 fps load: Berger 52 gr FB Varmint bullet, 25.0 gr. H335 or Viht n-133, and Fed 205M primers. I use Lapua Match brass which has been uniformed in all respects after one firing. I use a Redding body die with Redding competition shell holder, Lee collet neck die, and a Forster Ultra micrometer seater die. Bullets are seated 0.020 off the lands. Runout is virtually zero. My velocity ES averages 23 and my SD is 6. Despite all these efforts, I consistently get vertical stringing in my groups. A typical 5-shot group at 100 yards will have horizontal dispersion of 0.4", while vertical dispersion is 1.0 to 1.5". I observe this stringing whether I'm shooting off sandbags or my Lead Sled DFT. The stringing is not progressive, but random within a series. I've tried everything from holding the forearm down hard to nothing touching the gun but my trigger finger. Hard rest, soft rest, other shooters, it's always the same. :?: While I have a number of Rugers, I'm fairly new to the No. 1. I'm wondering if this is a common problem with this model and if there is an accepted cure. Any suggestions on what I should try next would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!

 

[picketpin]

Normally I say take the forearm off and shoot a group from a rest with the acton sitting on the rest or bag, See what happens Re-install the forearm with a little pressure and increase the forearm pressure as you shoot groups. You'll usually find the tip pressure that THAT rifle likes. Joe Miller came up with this about 5-6 years ago and it has shrunk group size for MANY of us. It seems to "settle" the rifle back into "battery" more consistently than free floating or the factory wood pressure pad.

Most #1s shoot best with some forearm tip pressure. If you have floated the barrel. Use a piece of truck inner tube (thicker than a passenger car tube) at the fore arm tip. At least 1" long that covers the barrel channel from side to side. Then put the forearm back on and repeat the above. ALL the #1s I own that I shoot from the bench and that shoot under .500 5 shot groups have this modification.


The Hicks Accurizer also work for many people. It does require a little stock work (Fore arm) but then you can adjust the upward pressure on the barrel externally and fine tune. We used to just drill and tap the forearm hanger and install a set screw years ago but the Hicks is easier to install and adjust.

I'm NOT trying to PO anybody or second guess them but I've shot #1s most of the time since 1967. I shoot a LOT. I hunt with #1s, I shoot varmints with #1s and for the last 6-8 years I've shot paper with #1s. I can get MOA out of a hunting rifle nearly all the time. I try real hard for .500 with varmint rifles/cartridges and usually get it with stuff from 17 Remington all the way up the 257 Roberts. The "V"s in 204, 222, 223, 22BR and up trough 22-250AI all can shoot .500s if I do my part. Paper punching with factory barreled 22PPCs and 6mm PPC can get you into the .300s Yes they have after market speed hammers and light triggers but NONE are free floated.

Check in the files section in the Yahoo Groups Ruger #1 and we list all the tips/ideas that guys have used successfully. The scores and groups for the 4 classes in our annual Postal Shoot are in the files section.

I did manage to win Class "A" .224 or under with my 22PPC (Factory barrel/chamber) with a two 5 shot groups that averaged .367 and scored 100 with 9Xs. First time I beat Joe in 5 years.

I've shot as low as .315 for ONE 5 shot group with a semi custom 257 Roberts "V" with a Shilen Tube and a Canjar trigger.

The lowest 5 shot group I have ever seen/heard of and trust to be true is a .265 that Joe Miller fired with his 30BR. He was our mentor and resident guru till he died this summer. Sounds like you have MOST of it figured out. Try some tip pressure and use a inch pound torque wrench so you can repeated it when /if needed.

I have also started glass bedding/pillar bedding one thing. On the target rifle #1s. The fore arm screw.My thought was that the screw escutcheon, being seated in the wood could compress over time due to recoil, wood density, drying etc. over time. My 6mm PPC had the screw pillar bedded. I lost to Joe last year in 6mm with a flyer but have since added the mod to my 22 PPC and my 22BR. The in process 30BR will be done the same way. Might not help but it sure can't hurt. ;-( I haven't done it to the 257 Roberts, yet.

Good luck and have fun. Still time to sign up for this years shoot. ;-)

Ross

The BEST #1s will outshoot MOST bolt guns. The BEST bolt guns will always outshoot the BEST #1s. It's the nature of the beast. ;-) It's the pursuit that's fun. ;-)

 

[roofinspector]

Sounds like you have a puzzler.

Looking at your load, I suspect some experience on the line, the load with the Vit powder, 205m, premium brass, Berger bullet oughta shoot in most 222-223's.

I also suspect, not know; you are probably from the era of good shooting 222's. Walker had a good idea I reckon.

Well, won't go into a senerio of how many rifles I have or what to do in bedding, the latter is on the net in quantity, just do a search if you feel the need. No one cares how much I shoot or how many rifles or what shoot I participated in.

One of the reasons that the 222 of the 60's and 70's shot so well was..................14/15 twist barrels. Of course the rifles in said benchrest were no slouch either or the shooters. I believe that one can over stabilize a bullet just like one can understabilize. Run a tight patched cleaning rod thru the barrel and count revolutions for the twist of your particular barrel. If it indeed is a late model 223, there was a movement to the 1 in 9 twist barrels in later years; which of course, are really aimed at the 70 or so gr sleek bullets that have lots more bearing surface than the bullet you mentioned. One might try a longer, heavier bullet sometime.

I have no idea if the twist is playing into the game, you sound like you know your way around a rifle, so won't bore you with bedding methods that have been around since dirt. If the barrel borescoped good, it oughta be ok most times. Guess we still do not know what makes a hummer.

roof

 

[Archer970]

Thank you Ross and Roof for the input. Ross, I have a question regarding the MMRT. I have not relieved any wood from the forearm. I floated the barrel by installing a small, 0.07" thick aluminum shim immediately behind the fastening cylinder on the hanger. Quick and easy and served the purpose for initial testing. I have now removed that shim and attempted to add the rubber truck tubing you suggested. However, I only have 0.03" clearance on both sides of the forearm end and the rubber will not compress enough to allow the forearm to set in place. So my question is, have you found it necessary to inlet the forearm slightly, or might the rubber I have be too hard? It's only 0.04, not the 0.06 recommended.

Roof, your insight is correct regarding "line experience" and my "era." My most accurate sporter is a 222 magnum bolt rifle. I have always been perplexed and disappointed as to why our military chose the 223 over the 222 mag. Oh well. As for the twist and bullet issue, mine is a 1:12 twist. As such I've stayed with bullets 60 grains and under. It does well with Nosler Ballistic Tip and Hornaday V-Max (50-55 g), but I think the Bergers have done better because they are more consistent in weight and geometry. Anyway, if the bullets were an issue I suspect I would see more lateral dispersion and not just vertical stringing. I've always suspected the vertical issue is due to how the gun jumps off the rest, that being a function of barrel harmonics and gun geometry. I will next try Ross's systematic approach to forearm tensioning and see where it takes me. My goal is to have this gun shoot 1/2 MOA consistently. That might not be realistic, but it is a goal. This gun was one of my fathers many Rugers. He was never happy with how it grouped, but was playing with too many others to really take the time and get it dialed in. He passed away last October, so as a tribute to him I've taken on this project (along with another M77/22 Hornet challenge). I'll let you both know if I succeed! Thanks again for your help.

 

[roofinspector]

Sorry to hear about your father, tis hard to lose a parent; everything takes time. I would have a special fondness for that rifle myself.

I share your fondness for the 222mag, I shot the full length Stolle version of 22/45 as well as an Audy Adams version of the 22/45 in my line days.

The twist thing was a long shot on my part, but I remember a swift(14 twist) and 69's that I tried to heat up and shoot, but was futile. Bullets have changed over the years, some weights have a longer bearing surface.

I remember reading about Elmer Keith and his no.1 in an old GunWorld?. He used a neoprene washer(o-ring actually) on the forearm screw. There is some question as to whether the o-ring goes inside the forearm or outside, but the concept is similar. I have used an o-ring on a No.1V in 220, that made the groups more consistent I felt; I placed the o-ring inside the forearm over the screw and relieved the front wood pressure point.

Winchester used a liquid bedding material that was resilient in their push bolt guns for a while. The concept of a resilient buffer; if you will, placed in the forearm is an old idea from way back. Nothing new or magical about that old method.

Hope it works out for you, just have to keep pluggin.

 

[picketpin]

Joe Miller came up with it while playing an old Model 52. He also owned/ran the Model 52 Site. He thought what the heck and tried it on his #1s and proceeded to kick our butts for 5 years straight.

I think most of us on the site that seriously shoot for bug holes have gone with them.

As you have not removed the factory pressure pad in your barrel channel, I would start with the first method and simply remove the forearm and see what happens and then tighten a little bit at a time and see. At some point they usually find the pressure that that rifle likes.

The thing with the rubber is "I" think it provides a bit of cushion and allows the barrel to "settle" more consistently from shot to shot. My thoughts are that the wood simply can not remain the same shot to shot and especially with lots of shooting, target and varmint rifles (#1s) take a pounding Heck I run a couple thousand through a selection of #1s in 22-250 and Swift through the course of the summer. Hundreds through the targets guns. On the other hand things like the 257 Roberts, 264 Win Mag and 7 STW MIGHT get 10 -12 rounds a year if I'm lucky. ;-)

If you decide to go that route it easy to remove the factory pressure point. I just use a dowel the same diameter of the barrel channel, wrap it in sand paper and sand the factory pressure point out. The rubber replaces it and other than showing a bit of black it doesn't even show/detract from your #1s looks. Oh, be sure to seal the sanded wood with something. I usually just treat it a few times with Tung Oil or paste wax.

Your rifle should have a 1:14 twist if factory..(Ruger says all the .224 CFs are 1:14) Unless it's a .223 made recently with the 1:9 twist . I think those are all 133- or newer.

Good luck and have fun

Ross

 

[Archer970]

Thanks, Ross. I hope to finish the forearm mods tomorrow and get to the range. I'm eager to see what kind of results I get.

Simply as a point of interest and for future reference, my gun was manufactured in 2001 with a serial # of 133-78XXX. The barrel has all the factory markings. It's been recrowned, hand lapped, and is silky smooth. There is no question that the twist rate is 1:12. It's been measured and remeasured and it always comes out at exactly 1:12. My Hornet of similar vintage is 1:14, but not the 223. Thanks again!

Dave

 

[picketpin]

Dave: My 22BR started life as a 218 Bee. It's still the factory barrel ad IT comes out 1:15 over and over. BUT Ruger will tell yopu that all their .224 barrels ar 1:14 with the exception of the new 1:9 223s. I do know the BR shoots 40s a lot better than 55s.

Go figure.

Ross

 

[Major T]

Scope bases not snug or screw a bit too long is something to check for. Twice in my lifetime a not quite firmly mounted base dealt me misery with vertical stringing.

Good luck,

Jack