Not happy with this SBH transaction

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375_H&H_Mag

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
33
I received my gun today. OLD Model SBH described by the seller on gunbroker as "Minty" and approximately 98 % The first thing my smith/ffl said to me was "There it is on the counter. Did he tell you it had been reblued"? I replied, "No." He had already inspected it. My gunsmith, has been custom building guns and gunsmithing for over 35 years. He is a retired History professor and has an impeccably trained eye regarding firearms. When i inspected the gun, on the left side of the gun where it reads "Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Magnum cal." the lower half of "44" is missing as well as part of "Mag" in "Magnum." the bore looks awfully new like it has not been fired. None of the markings on the gun are crisp as in the way roll stamping usually looks "untouched." Although the rest of the markings are complete. I am quite dissatisfied with the purchase. It is a nice gun, but I am EXTREMELY ANAL about crap like this. I am awaiting an email response from the gentleman I bought it from. The timing seems perfect, and the gun is in good condition, and appears "near mint", rifling is good with strong, apparently sharp lands. Action seems tight. what do you guys think. Is it normal to find some of these guns where the roll markings were incomplete? Could we be wrong about this?

:evil:
 
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
7,730
no Sir, take the advice of a man who has been or still is "in the business" takes years to spot GOOD reblue jobs and the ones that LOOK reblued' are dead give aways...it is NOT what was advertised, too many GOOD, nice , original shape Supers out there....if its priced as a "refinished" gun ( and the blue book is ONLY for guns that have their "original" factory finish.......) Now the caveat to this is years ago, yes, even Ruger refinished LOTS of their guns, offered to it "free" and some of the early ,high polished Supers are in this class, they are so over polished, they look ( as they are , reblued,redone, whatever one wants to call it) and this was done before they even left the factory, maybe a "Learning process"???...many guys in the "business" recall those days and held it against Ruger for their "bad" jobs...hell, look at the plum parts they put out for years...yes, the Ruger collectors love it, BUT Winchester,Colt and Smith collectors "frown" on them............now any rare,scarce guns can be of a slight premium over NO finish or 10% condition...........the choice is yours, fortunately, not ours........
with out "seeing" the gun in question, and it being a "Super" it could fall in this "high polish' era gun,,,,and they were really buffed out...........just saw one last weekend and it was a factory lettered brass grip framed gun to boot????but no, lettering and rollmarkings should NOT be "missing" or that polished out....
got ANY pictures you can download ( up load)....????

Bottom line, like your title says, you are NOT happy..............
 

375_H&H_Mag

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
33
This gentleman, from what i gather in talking with him, has a lot of guns. Many old revolvers and some cap and ball along with modern revolvers and autos. I find it hard to belive that he didn't see this and that he would not have known. I try to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but i am getting really aggravated about this. It may seem like a small matter to some, but this crap makes me want to choke somebody.
 

bisleyfan41

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
479
I've seen roll markings that have some "faint" letters/numbers. Some really light. Have also seen some missaligned bad enough that it even had part of the stamping down on the grip frame.

Some reblues are easy to tell; some are very hard to distinguish from original. Although I can't possibly be 100% certain since I can't hold it, it may be original if everything else but the rollmark seems fine. Some guns exhibit alot more "crisper" edges around the roll markings than others. The OMs I've seen haven't had a great deal of raised material around the letters. The lack of heavy pressure exerted by the marking machine may be the exact reason for the "light" stamping of some of your gun's letters/numbers.

I hope you and the seller work it out. Just remember you're dealing with Ruger's here and I've never held one that I couldn't nit-pick at least some small detail on it, cosmetic or otherwise. If you want absolute perfection in this type of detail, you may be in for alot frustration with Rugers. Heck, even the FAs have "warts", miniscule as they are. Good luck.
 

375_H&H_Mag

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
33
Rugerguy,

here is a link to some pics. I do not have the means to take any right now. As you can see it is hard to tell much in the photos. I know this will not affect the shooting of the gun.

<<<I pasted a link but removed it due to identifying the seller on gunbroker. That would be as bad as negative feedback and do not want to do that until I speak with him.>>>>
 

375_H&amp;H_Mag

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
33
hittman,

you have a good point. I am not trying to bash this guy at all. I am not a trouble maker and respect everyone. I just find it hard to believe that he, being an owner of MANY handguns (I know from speaking with him on the phone), didn't see these things and AT LEAST MENTION them in his add. Most will say, "It appears to have maybe been reblued" and such. He being a professed connoisseur and collector of handguns, you would be hard pressed to make me believe that he didn't notice this. I don't KNOW that, but it seems rather strange to me.
 

D R Greysun

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
21
375_H&H_Mag":3fuitz4w said:
This gentleman, from what i gather in talking with him, has a lot of guns. Many old revolvers and some cap and ball along with modern revolvers and autos. I find it hard to belive that he didn't see this and that he would not have known. I try to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but i am getting really pissed about this. It may seem like a small matter to some, but this crap makes me want to choke somebody. :evil:

Well 375, do you feel you paid a premium for a 98% original 'Old Model SBH'
(I'll assume you mean 3 screw) or perhaps coped a deal on a 98% OM SBH? If you paid for a collector piece you have every right to be PO'd. Otherwise you got what you paid for.

D R
 

TRanger

Blackhawk
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
797
The term "minty" does not mean the same as "mint" or "near mint." Whenever I see this term, it simply means the gun "resembles" a mint or near mint gun. A reblued gun may indeed "resemble" a mint gun, but be nothing of the kind. "Minty" has always had a ring of phoniness about it to me. Just something I keep in mind.
 

375_H&amp;H_Mag

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
33
Well 375, do you feel you paid a premium for a 98% original 'Old Model SBH'
(I'll assume you mean 3 screw) or perhaps coped a deal on a 98% OM SBH? If you paid for a collector piece you have every right to be PO'd. Otherwise you got what you paid for.



With all due respect sir, whether the revolver was a collectible or not is irrelevant. I bought this revolver under the pretense of it being a 98% ORIGINAL (it was not stated to the contrary of this) OLD model SBH. Getting what you pay for is highly subjective. Some don't mind a reblue, others do. I paid a price for the advertised piece that had no mention of a possible reblue, so if I got a reblued gun, I didn't get what I paid for, regardless of the conditon. I am not concerned with aesthetics as much as I am originality. Not trying to be offensive here, but your assessment of worth is your own. My money, my time, and my satisfaction is governed by MY standards of worth. We are all different no doubt. I am not here to argue and wont be disrespectful. It may be, as one poster stated that, this gun is not reblued and there is no fowl play on the sellers part, but until I am proven otherwise, I will be extremely incline to believe it has. Nevertheless, I am not going to dwell on it. Will talk with seller and see what he has to say, and if I have to keep it, my days of gunbroker will be over. I bought a beautiful shotgun on there that was original and mint, but the choke was distorted. I did not feel that the seller was aware of it and did not blame him, but this left a bad taste in my mouth and I had to have choke tubes installed for any good shooting. I gave it another try, if this doesn't work out, I will relegate that website to my last resort and then shop with meticulous circumspection.

<<< again, I am simply speaking my mind here and in no way am i attempting to disrespect any forum members >>>

auf Wierdersehen, 375
 
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
7,730
Good point TR, and also as said above, try and get another "opinion" from someone you can trust....know what you meant about the link, better to keep it low key for now, but how much time do you actually have?? many folks give the "noted 3 day inspection..."
good point above also, price can be everything...................but must be based on "condition"....foremost
 

375_H&amp;H_Mag

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
33
I emailed the seller asking for a refund, with me paying all further shipping costs. Hopefully he will refund me, and he is out nothing and I can buy something else.
 

COR

Blackhawk
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
844
You should look up the term Caveat Emptor. I believe that entering into a firearm transaction sight unseen is always risky and should be approached with caution. I have gotten many deals on the internet and I believe that 99.99% of the folks are good people, but that .01% do exist. You also make some pretty big assumptions that the seller is adept at grading firearms...FYI "Minty" is not a term used by those who are.

Could be worse, Hey if nothing else you got a great shooter!
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
20,800
Have you looked at the recoil shield around the firing pin hole??? It's usually a dead giveaway to a reblue if that area is blued. If it's NOT blued for about 1/8" on all sides of the firing pin hole,, it has not been reblued.
There are pics of both examples around this forum recently.
 

BearStopper

Blackhawk
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
787
Anyone who is capable of listing a firearm on Gunbroker or other auction sites is also capable of describing it honestly. This is not a subjective problem such as the difference in a 95% vs a 98% where it can and does vary by who describes it and it should have been up front info. If the seller makes good on the refund then at least he has fixed his mistake. I agree with the buyer that there is no good exuse for conveniently leaving out that little detail. Now at times there are sellers that either play dumb or are ignorant to properly describing a firearms "issues" and that is why the buyer cannot ask too many questions and definitely beware.
 

Jimbo357mag

Hawkeye
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
10,098
If the buyer isn't sure it is a re-blue how can the seller be expected to know it is a re-blue. Perhaps he was describing exactly what he thought the gun was. Some sellers are not that knowledgeable, I know from reading the adds. Sometimes they don't even get the make and model right. Bottom line : if you are not happy with the gun the seller should take it back as long as you pay shipping or whatever. That's what is usual, isn't it?

..Jimbo
 

Lloyd Smale

Blackhawk
Joined
Aug 10, 2003
Messages
555
my thoughts exactly
Jimbo357mag":iht38wi9 said:
If the buyer isn't sure it is a re-blue how can the seller be expected to know it is a re-blue. Perhaps he was describing exactly what he thought the gun was. Some sellers are not that knowledgeable, I know from reading the adds. Sometimes they don't even get the make and model right. Bottom line : if you are not happy with the gun the seller should take it back as long as you pay shipping or whatever. That's what is usual, isn't it?

..Jimbo
 

375_H&amp;H_Mag

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
33
If the buyer isn't sure it is a re-blue how can the seller be expected to know it is a re-blue. Perhaps he was describing exactly what he thought the gun was. Some sellers are not that knowledgeable, I know from reading the adds. Sometimes they don't even get the make and model right.

This is very true. Agreed. This particular seller told me personally that he has been shooting and handling Rugers since age nine, and he is in his late 40's now. He told me that he saw no signs of rebluing on the gun and that his other SBH (listed at same time as mine and sold about same time) looked the same as bluing goes. Additionally, he has probably seen many, many guns. His take was that the gun was not reblued.

<<< To this sellers credit, HE OFFERED ME A FULL REFUND if I was not satisfied. However, he showed me some pictures of a couple other ruger SBH revolvers with nearly identical roll stamp imperfections (these were mainly other guns that werent his own on gunbroker with closeup photos), and a couple of forum members here stated that they seen rugers with same flaws. HE STILL OFFERED ME A REFUND IF I WAS NOT SATISFIED, and that was much appreciatated. I really do believe this gun is original after further observation, and data collected from forum members and pictures. I AM KEEPING THE REVOLVER. It locks up very tight, the bore is impeccable, furniture is exceptional, and as said earlier, I now believe it is original finish. >>>

One poster said if a SBH revolver HAD BEEN reblued, the circumferential area on the recoil shield around the firing pin (approx. 0.125 inch) would be blued. It is not on this gun. There is an obvious nonblued area all the way around. Not sure why this is. Any takers?

I did not mean to come over as an ass about this, it is just prevalent for things such as that to happen, and I thought it happened to me. I stand corrected (As far as I can tell) from the info I have received, and the gentleman was very concerned about my satisfaction, which is the attribute of highest desire IMHO.
 

boomslang

Bearcat
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
70
Mr Flatgate had a pictures of rebuled and non reblued guns at one time on this forum. The reubuled guns will look too perfect around the breach area, recoil plate and firing pin. The wear you see in unrebuled guns is due to the brass rubbing on the inside of the recoil shield. You will have the ratchet teeth marks on the back of the recoil shield due to recoil. These marks should be just wear in the bluing. If they are really deep you are looking at a revolver that has seen a lot of firing. Maybe with really heavy loads. I have a couple of old models and some of the stamping is none too crisp.

Here is a picture of one of my guns that I acquired from a forum member.




You can see that the bottom of the 44 magnum is a little washed out. It came from the factory this way.
 
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
7,730
375 do NOT consider your self as "being an ass" not true...as pointed out above, the seller may NOT really know, nor even have a clue...and as you say ,he did make you a refund offer.....all GOOD, as we said it still is YOUR want,need and feelings that are utmost.....no we still did not hear or see any "pricing" which is to be considered....( bottom line..) but as the picture above shows, that is "exact;y How many of the socalled 'high polish" Supers do turn out and are like that from the factory.........as for any part being "worn" ( area of the recoil shield..) sorry but that is addressed in ANY 'proper restoration, and made to look "refitted & worn" in a refinsihed /retored gun,,,,,NO, not a "reblue", if the gun LOOKS "reblued" then thats what it is, and NOT a job well done....
gotta see ,hold feel and look into the finish and polishing to really tell, NOT in a single or even a group of pictures...........
You got what YOU want , and thats ALL that really matters. don't let ANY of us 'second guess ' you.
Opinions are like butt holes ,we all have one............ :wink:
 

Ruger1441

Blackhawk
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
618
In my experience the older Supers generally look a little washed out in the "Ruger Super Bladkhawk" area. The 80 prefix guns seem to be crisper in their markings in this area.
 

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