New bullet design for Ruger revolvers

[Onty]

Some time ago I was involved into discussion in another forum about Keith bullets and their virtues. Of course, we all know how good Keith's bullets are. However, the truth is that, when heavy weights are required, LBT style is generally considered as a better choice. In that discussion a gentleman stepped in with proposal about modifying LBT by adding a small cone ahead of front driving band. The theory is that our ordinary revolvers (I am not talking about custom and semi-custom ones with line bored cylinders) have certain misalignment between cylinder chambers and barrel. When ordinary bullets hit the forcing cone, especially those with sharp shoulder, a small deformation on one side in bullet aligning process is inevitable, and when compounding with other inaccuracies that are beyond our control, our groups are opening up significantly. Now, by adding same cone angle on the bullet, contact surface with forcing cone is considerably increased and bullet deformation is reduced, bullet alignment is improved and as a result accuracy is improved. The best part of the story is that he himself made a mould to produce such bullets, and results are spectacular; with hard cast bullets equipped with gas check he was getting a rifle level of accuracy as far as 200 yds, even with standard SBH. He initially designed an made bullet with 11° cone, because (I assume) to use them in BFR, but it worked fine also in SBH.

Well, taking into account his experience, I started thinking why not to design bullet for Ruger revolvers specifically, and made a forcing cone on it 5°. After all, low angle forcing cone might have some benefits over 11°, since contact surface more than doubles.

Anyhow, here is my version of noted bullet for Rugers:

Nominal dia; .432
Weight using WW (with GC): 310 gr
Meplat dia: .340
Crimp to meplat: .445
OAL (with GC): .845

Please, take a look and let me know what do you think? If you feel that this could work, you can join us in preliminary discussion here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=135908 .

We would need to have at least 10 potential customers before starting group buy (GB) officially.

 

[WIL TERRY]

IMNHO, the LBT has never ever but NEVER been a better bullet choise than any Keith design bullet; NOT EVEN CLOSE, let alone out to long range where the LBT's cannot hit a cow in the tit with a tin cup.

 

[dougader]

I don't know about that. I have heard the WFN bullets are not for shots over 100 yards or so, but the WLN and LFN bullets make super long range bullets.

 

[Onty]

IMNHO, the LBT has never ever but NEVER been a better bullet choise than any Keith design bullet; NOT EVEN CLOSE, let alone out to long range where the LBT's cannot hit a cow in the tit with a tin cup.

Before going any further, let me tell you that I like Keith's SWC-s, and shot them more than any other style, and the only non-Keith boolit I shoot occasionally is 357-158 (#398) TC from SAECO. As a matter of fact, I designed 502-440 (no revolver yet), conceived 45-503-SWC and reverse engineered 41 H&G #258, and have all those moulds, plus 44 H&G #503 brass (4cavity) and aluminium (6 cavity).

Saying that, I will never dismiss somebody's else experience, and the fact is that, when mould is properly made and right load is developed, LBT could be every bit accurate as Keith's bullets. Now, the real issue with LBT is who makes the mould, what is the quality? Also, there are several variations of LBT bullet, and not all of them are same in term of accuracy.

Here is the extract from article Ross Seyfried wrote:

...When I asked Hamilton Bowen to create a revolver that would show just how accurate a revolver could be, he chose the five-shot .45 Colt system. The goal was to fire one-inch groups at 100 yards, to produce fine rifle accuracy with a revolver. A one-inch revolver raises the difficulty level to extreme, when we realize this is not necessarily easy with a bolt-action rifle. Asking a revolver - with five different chambers that are disconnected from the bore, with a gap between the barrel and cylinder, with all of the inherent inaccuracies - to play on the rifle field is akin to changing lead into gold.

To his immense credit, Bowen succeeded on the first attempt. Several loads hovered around 2 inches. One magical combination, the big 360-grain LBT wide flatnose, loaded to maximum with H-110, fired many groups that were an inch or less... http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=321&magid=24

Also, see this thread http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2911043/m/2391097721/p/1 .

As far as I could see from here and other articles, LBT has to be loaded full throttle in order to stabilize, especially on long ranges, when Keith's bullets could be very accurate with reduced loads. That is the one big reason why we like them so much.

The bullet I am proposing is not intended for casual plinking with reduced loads, and not intended to replace SWC, but a heavy bullet for serious business. Hope this clarifies my intentions.

 

[contender]

Interesting concept. I have a mix of both Keith types, and LBT types. In MY hands, they both seem to be about the same out to about 100 yds. I'd give your mold idea a try just to see,,,,!

 

[Onty]

Interesting concept. I have a mix of both Keith types, and LBT types. In MY hands, they both seem to be about the same out to about 100 yds. I'd give your mold idea a try just to see,,,,!

In that case I would like to invite you to join us at http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=135908 .

 

[Lee Martin]

I've had an easier time getting Keith style bullets to group, but that said I've had good luck with LBT's. Some recent targets include:

500 Linebaugh - 10 shots @ 25 yards

500 Linebaugh - 5 shots @ 50 yards

450 Bonecrusher - 5 shots @ 50 yards

These groups are better than I can usually shoot, but were not anomalies. Whether Keiths would've grouped better is a non-issue for me....I'd never need more from a handgun.

And while I don't have pictures to post, I've shot some very impressive 100 yard groups with WFNs and LFNs in my customs (bench-rested off course).

 

[Bucks Owin]

There are definately no flies on Veral's bullet designs, whether used in africa or the target range, he's got it covered and a ton of testimonials to the fact. If they fit the gun right, they perform from what I've seen...

And I find LBT molds have a slight learning curve, but make very nice bullets easily thereafter...JMHO :wink:

(BTW, I've read here and there that the Keith is good but not best at long range, eg HG silhouette...)

EDIT: Veral Smith has said that there are "LBT" bullets sold from commercial vendors that aren't coming from his molds and aren't "genuine" LBT bullets....Just saying

 

[contender]

Onty, I do visit the cast boolits forum. Thanks!

 

[WESHOOT2]

Might I suggest getting some bullets out there for more shooters to work with, then revisiting accuracy performance?

 

[Lee Martin]

The one thing I'll say about WFNs and LFNs is you have to drive them fast. Every time I back off the throttle, group sizes tend to open. Most of my LBT bullets get seated over full cases of H110 or AA1680.

 

[steve b]

Wll, ya learn somethin' every day ! I had not been aware that LBT bullets are best at full throttle, not so good when loafing along. Have considered them hunting bullets, so they have been loaded "firmly". I did run off a batch of 255gr WFN's for my SBH using 18.6gr of 2400, a mid-range loading, to my thinking. Haven't shot them yet. Hmmnnn.... steve b

 

[Lee Martin]

Well Steve, that's just my experience....though I've heard others say the same thing. Your 18.6 of 2400 isn't weak by any means. I assume that's in 41 Magnum?

 

[steve b]

Nope, a SBH.. steve b

 

[gunhaus]

In the heavy-for caliber wieghts the LBT's are happier when pushed hard. But the standard or lighter weights will most often behave nicely at less than full speed. I routinely use the 44/250, and 44 /280 WFN at around 1000 fps with terrific results. And I do believe the molds make a differnce. Verals molds have aways cast good bullets and are what we use in the shop. I have had some knock offs from other mold makers and the results were very mixed to say the least. In truth, most balanced bullet designs cast from good molds will mork well. . . But, they NEED to be cast from approriate to the pressure alloys, and sized to fit in chambers and bores that match as best as possible. I see alot of undersized chambers, over sized chambers, bad alignements, poor forcing cones, and a dozen other no-no's everyday. And almost with out exception, the owner blames the bullets, the loads, or the fates for his troubles. I admire the attempt to create a bullet to "fix" some of the common problems, and i hope it works. But in the end i believe that correcting the gun, and then properly fitting the bullet will prove to be the most satifactory solution to most accurcy troubles. my 2cents anyway
-John

 

[Onty]

I agree that no matter how good is the bullet design, if revolver is not right, results will be mediocre, at the best. However, if bullet could be made to take advantage of the existing conditions, results could be very good.

It all started some time ago on this thread http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2911043/m/2391097721/p/1 , see bfrshooter's posts. When I was looking for group buy (GB) for something heavier for 44 on http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55 , did not find anything open or pending, I recalled what bfrshooter's work, so I just adapted what he had done. As a matter of fact, I contacted him before posting and he encouraged me to go ahead.

 

[Chuckbuster]

Onty
Looks like an interesting idea but the Diameter is either +.019" or -.045" for me. Only "44" I have is a Special.

Your .41 #258 project sounds interesting though

I'll have to try to keep an eye on this project, maybe it will come up sometime in a useful diameter.

K

 

[Onty]

Onty
Looks like an interesting idea but the Diameter is either +.019" or -.045" for me...

Using same cutter Miha can cut .454 dia mould, weight will be 350 casting from WW and with GC, meplat .362 dia. FYI, there is already active GB 45-350.

As for .477-.478 design, weight will be 400 grains using WW and with GC, meplat .386 dia.

Anyhow, I would like to get this 44-310-LWN-GC running, 45 and 475/480 could be another time if there is enough interest.