Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
...or just be sure to load your gun with the ammo that the manufacturer specifies and don't worry about all the other cartridges and calibers.
Musings of a newbie
- Thread starter Durango Dave
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Luckyducker
Single-Sixer
So Durango Dave, consider this the 9mmLuger has a groove diameter of .355" but the 9mmMakarov has a groove diameter of .364". I have witnessed people who shoot the 9mm Luger (also used to be known as the 9mm Parabellum in Europe) buy the Mak. ammo by mistake. When a person shoots a certain firearm he has to know the nomenclature of the cartridge it shoots or he can get into trouble. I have witnessed a guy at a gunshop tell the person behind the counter he needs 338 ammo and the counterman asks him which 338 and the customer just had a deer in the headlights look on his face.
daveg.inkc
Hunter
Don't forget the 9 mm Kurz,,, .380. The round that started WWILuckyducker said:
pisgah
Buckeye
contender said:"Hey, I'm a newbie. I've got better things to read than books about bullets and cartridges: that's why I joined the forum. To find easy answers."
Then understand that at least a good 50% of the time the information you will get is going to be wrong or incomplete, usually stuff people have heard repeated for years and years and just repeat themselves without verifying it, usually with all good intentions but sometimes -- thankfully, rarely -- with a hidden agenda of some sort, or even a malicious intent.
The Internet is a wonderful place to begin a search for knowledge, but a lousy place to end it.
Chuck 100 yd
Hunter
Anyone who takes up a hobby that has the potential to be very dangerous but will not take the time to learn about it needs to reconsider their choice of hobbies.
Possibly knitting or scrapbooking would be a better choice ?
Possibly knitting or scrapbooking would be a better choice ?
Durango Dave
Single-Sixer
Hey Chuck, I am eagerly learning about the safety of my guns. Who said otherwise?
My post is asking about what the manufacturers measure when they state caliber specs.
This is the only quote that I didn't want to read books about the history of handguns because I didn't think it would be so important to safety.
I didn't ask what cartridges I could load into my particular gun. I didn't say I don't want to learn how to safely shoot my guns. The last thing I would want to do is ignorantly try to shoot ammo that is not safe for my gun. Chuck do you really think reading books on the history of handguns is so crucial to gun safety that anyone that doesn't read about this history shouldn't have guns?
My post is asking about what the manufacturers measure when they state caliber specs.
Sacramento Johnson said:
This is the only quote that I didn't want to read books about the history of handguns because I didn't think it would be so important to safety.
I didn't ask what cartridges I could load into my particular gun. I didn't say I don't want to learn how to safely shoot my guns. The last thing I would want to do is ignorantly try to shoot ammo that is not safe for my gun. Chuck do you really think reading books on the history of handguns is so crucial to gun safety that anyone that doesn't read about this history shouldn't have guns?
Chuck 100 yd
Hunter
Durango Dave said:
It's not so much about safety, as in handling a gun safely, but the information contained in these books/ loading manuals explain much of the caliber designations you asked about.
One need not know about calibers that you don't own or never will but knowing the particulars of the ammo used in the gun you do own is important. A good reloading manual will reveal that info. Have fun, stay safe.
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Nice picture of the ammo. Needs the venerable 22 LONG! I actually picked up a box of them recently. New manufacture CCI. Had not seen any in I cannot remember how long.
Jerry
Jerry
daveg.inkc
Hunter
Looks like a job getting shells lined up. I try a few while loading and always knock one or 4 over
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
Wiki will give you background and history and just about anything else you might want to know about cartridges and caliber.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum
Hondo44
Hawkeye
Durango Dave.
By now you've realized the vastness of your questions. Besides everything posted above, there are some basic realities to know and understand:
1. Like any subject there are short cut nick names and just plain misnomers. For ex.: we don't load 'bullets' into guns; we load 'cartridges'. A 'cartridge gun' uses a self contained cartridge made up of a case, bullet, gun powder and primer.
2. Many cartridges are very similar to other cartridges using the same caliber bullets, therefore manufacturers use arbitrary cal designations to differentiate between the different cartridges: .22s probably have the most variation of cartridges. And all shoot a .224" caliber bullet but can be labeled, .22, .218, .221, .223, etc., etc. Usually with various descriptors attached to differentiate them: .22 CB, short, long, or long rifle, .218 BEE, .221 Fireball, .223 Remington and several more because these cartridges range from rim fire to center fire and from 1/2" tall to 3"+. One reason is safety so someone doesn't try to load just any of those .224 cal cartridges in just any .22 cal. gun!
3. Most all common cartridges used today have evolved from round ball caliber sizes of the percussion era, to heeled bullet sizes that followed, to the modern Inside Lubricated bullets.
4. Actual bullet diameters, and barrel bore and groove diameters are not an exact science but work safely with small diameter variations. But in order for a lead bullet to be accurate it must always be a bit larger than the bore diameter and even .001" over the groove diameter (less for jacketed bullets) for a good grip in the rifling to obtain its spin!
The bottom line is that every cartridge has a different story as to how it ended up what it's called today. So as you can imagine, each of those different stories cannot be answered here in a post, they fill a book and must be read.
One very good inexpensive book reference book is the soft cover "Barnes Cartridges of the World", about $15. No one reads the entire book! You just look up the cartridge or cartridges that you are particularly interested in, and read that paragraph.
Hope this helps
By now you've realized the vastness of your questions. Besides everything posted above, there are some basic realities to know and understand:
1. Like any subject there are short cut nick names and just plain misnomers. For ex.: we don't load 'bullets' into guns; we load 'cartridges'. A 'cartridge gun' uses a self contained cartridge made up of a case, bullet, gun powder and primer.
2. Many cartridges are very similar to other cartridges using the same caliber bullets, therefore manufacturers use arbitrary cal designations to differentiate between the different cartridges: .22s probably have the most variation of cartridges. And all shoot a .224" caliber bullet but can be labeled, .22, .218, .221, .223, etc., etc. Usually with various descriptors attached to differentiate them: .22 CB, short, long, or long rifle, .218 BEE, .221 Fireball, .223 Remington and several more because these cartridges range from rim fire to center fire and from 1/2" tall to 3"+. One reason is safety so someone doesn't try to load just any of those .224 cal cartridges in just any .22 cal. gun!
3. Most all common cartridges used today have evolved from round ball caliber sizes of the percussion era, to heeled bullet sizes that followed, to the modern Inside Lubricated bullets.
4. Actual bullet diameters, and barrel bore and groove diameters are not an exact science but work safely with small diameter variations. But in order for a lead bullet to be accurate it must always be a bit larger than the bore diameter and even .001" over the groove diameter (less for jacketed bullets) for a good grip in the rifling to obtain its spin!
The bottom line is that every cartridge has a different story as to how it ended up what it's called today. So as you can imagine, each of those different stories cannot be answered here in a post, they fill a book and must be read.
One very good inexpensive book reference book is the soft cover "Barnes Cartridges of the World", about $15. No one reads the entire book! You just look up the cartridge or cartridges that you are particularly interested in, and read that paragraph.
Hope this helps
Bob Wright
Hawkeye
Caliber designation of metallic cartridges has a long and convoluted history going back to the earliest metallic cartridges which were much closer in dimensions, i.e. .44 bullets ran something like .442" in diameter. But changes made in design reduced the actual bullet diameter, and the advertising department was reluctant to say the new cartridge was a smaller caliber. So Madison Avenue prevailed over Production.
And so it continues to be. Part of the fun of this hobby/obsession/study is the detective work.
Bob Wright
And so it continues to be. Part of the fun of this hobby/obsession/study is the detective work.
Bob Wright
Sugar River
Buckeye
Good thing no one mentioned the 38/40..........
Take a look here http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm
Eric
Eric
Hondo44
Hawkeye
Unfortunately that list of cartridges does not fully explain the 38-40.
It correctly identifies that the 38-40 (or 38 WCF) is a .40" (.401") cal bullet loaded with 38 grains of BP. But not why the 38 and the 40 are reversed from Winchesters normal cartridge designations showing the cal first and the loading last like 44-40, 32-20, 25-20, etc.
Winchester wanted a medium sized cartridge for its 1873 rifle. 40-38 is the appropriate label according to their normal protocol. However their marketing dept felt that 40-38 didn't send the correct message to potential buyers that it was a medium sized cartridge. After all, the 44-40 actually only used a .427" cal bullet. Therefore the #s were reversed to 38-40 which also rolled off the tongue better than 40-38.
It correctly identifies that the 38-40 (or 38 WCF) is a .40" (.401") cal bullet loaded with 38 grains of BP. But not why the 38 and the 40 are reversed from Winchesters normal cartridge designations showing the cal first and the loading last like 44-40, 32-20, 25-20, etc.
Winchester wanted a medium sized cartridge for its 1873 rifle. 40-38 is the appropriate label according to their normal protocol. However their marketing dept felt that 40-38 didn't send the correct message to potential buyers that it was a medium sized cartridge. After all, the 44-40 actually only used a .427" cal bullet. Therefore the #s were reversed to 38-40 which also rolled off the tongue better than 40-38.
coach
Hunter
Pick up a copy of The Gunners Bible, if they still publish it. It had lots of different articles about firearms and ammo. It was a good reference for me when I got started.
Durango Dave
Single-Sixer
While I used to think caliber always meant the diameter of the bullet. I now realize this term does not have a standardized meaning. Sometimes it's the diameter of the bullet, sometimes the casing, sometimes the barrel and sometimes the caliber does not correlate to any specific dimension. For example it seems that a 9mm bullet was originally 9mm in diameter. Then they made variations on this cartridge and nothing is 9mm any longer.
contender
Ruger Guru
Welcome to the wonderful world of firearms!!!!!!!
Lots of good advice here, one thing I have told many new shooters is that I understand their frustration in learning the terminology. it seems that you learn a rule then you learn 3 exceptions. it is just a matter of taking the time and effort to learn.
Jim
Jim
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