Rich S
Bearcat
um i think i count six, though my ser# is about 350 units before alex's with the same catalog # GF84NYCPD and it is DAO bobbed hammer but i have no star in my frame cutout. weird.
regards,
Rich
regards,
Rich
looking for info on GPNY and SPNY
- Thread starter Rich S
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Interestingly enough, while trying to find a matching 4" Service Six stainless .38 to my girlfriend's $260 gun I got for her, and having a lot of trouble finding ANYthing for under $350 currently, i stumbled across a gun advertised as an NYPD gun for under $350, a search led me to this thread...
"GF-84NYCPD double action only (with bobbed hammer) Known s/n range 162-40766 to 162-41689. 4 known. Extremely rare. At least one of this variety is known to have been shipped with a shipping sleeve that has a shipping sleeve stamp that incorrectly states "GF-84" and "SPEED-SIX" (known s/n 162-41689). Note that this model also has a star hand stamped on the inside of the crane, possibly by an armorer outside the Ruger factory."
.....where I found the gun I'm looking at listed by SN..it's the 40766 gun....a real dog, but i'm buying it as a shooter/carry-gun, and your thread here shows it as unusual anyhow...thanks for all the info guys....
"GF-84NYCPD double action only (with bobbed hammer) Known s/n range 162-40766 to 162-41689. 4 known. Extremely rare. At least one of this variety is known to have been shipped with a shipping sleeve that has a shipping sleeve stamp that incorrectly states "GF-84" and "SPEED-SIX" (known s/n 162-41689). Note that this model also has a star hand stamped on the inside of the crane, possibly by an armorer outside the Ruger factory."
.....where I found the gun I'm looking at listed by SN..it's the 40766 gun....a real dog, but i'm buying it as a shooter/carry-gun, and your thread here shows it as unusual anyhow...thanks for all the info guys....
I think the NYCPD Service Six and Speed Six will turn out to be quite a lot more common than now known. Since there are not many Ruger DA collectors, these guns had gone unnoticed until just a few years ago when I reported the first GF84-NYCPD followed fairly quickly be the first known GS83-NYCPD to RENE. I suspect the Service Six will prove to be more common.
As I understand it, NYC cops had to buy their own sidearms. These guns are more or less 20 years old, so as the officers retire and trade off their weapons to fund other things, expect them to keep showing up for a while.
These both came out NYS shops near NYC:
As I understand it, NYC cops had to buy their own sidearms. These guns are more or less 20 years old, so as the officers retire and trade off their weapons to fund other things, expect them to keep showing up for a while.
These both came out NYS shops near NYC:
Oh, I guess I can throw in these pics too, this is a GPNY that I got for my girlfriend last year:
bigbore45colt
Hunter
Hey, WMG, what's the story with the star inside the crane?
BB45C
BB45C
T. A. WORKMAN first noticed the star, nobody knows for sure what the signifigance is but the NYCPD guns all have it. Note that the GF84-NYCPD shipper in the first pic above (which was incorrectly stamped as a Speed Six in the red ink) also has a black ink star in the upper right corner of the end panel.
With only 300 or so authorized revolver carriers still on the NYPD 30,000 man force, and new carriers verboten, and the NYPD Service Sixes coming in at the tail end of the SS's production run, it's not like 20,000 guns are suddenly going to show up...nor did every new rookie choose a Ruger when offered a choice back in the late '80's....the guns will still stay a relatively scarce sub-set of the over 1 million Service Sixes sold....still pretty neat guns, guns with stories....
mtngunr, welcome to Ruger Forum!
I agree that these will always be scarce. I didn't mean to imply that there will be one under every rock, but I think the number "known" to collectors will grow from the half dozen or so of each model to a point where we can establish a pretty good estimate for how large the contracts were. Now that they are included in the RENE Reference, some amount of awareness is established and people who spot these may think twice about passing up a stainless .38 Special DAO that they see, maybe check for the star, and report the SN to RENE.
Ruger DA's are still pretty thinly followed by collectors. We need more people to sit up and pay attention! There were quite a few scarce to rare models and variations made over the 17 years of production, making for a lot of possibilities for collecting.
I have owned 2 each of the GF84-NYCPD and GS83-NYCPD guns and passed up a few others that I have seen on auction sites because they did not upgrade the ones I have. The first of these reported to RENE was 162-41574 in Sep, 2005 and I have since sold that one due to upgrading to the boxed gun above. I reported the first GS83-NYCPD in May, 2006. So they really are a recent "discovery" for collectors. Of the four that I have info on, one came from a shop in Amarillo, TX, the other three all came from NY state shops (Staten Island, Oyster Bay, and Nanuet). It makes sense that the best bet for finding these would be around the NYC area.
I would be a bit surprised to learn that any of these are still in use as service weapons. But I guess if it is a 30,000 man :shock: force, there may be a chance of it. Geez, the whole county I live in is only about 35,000 :lol:
One clarification on the numbers - there were around 1.25 million -Six series DA's of all types (Security-Six, Speed-Six, and Police Service-Six). Not sure how many of each but probably the majority were Security-Sixes (maybe 65%) with the Service-Six coming in a respectable second (maybe 35%) and the lowest production being the Speed-Six.
I agree that these will always be scarce. I didn't mean to imply that there will be one under every rock, but I think the number "known" to collectors will grow from the half dozen or so of each model to a point where we can establish a pretty good estimate for how large the contracts were. Now that they are included in the RENE Reference, some amount of awareness is established and people who spot these may think twice about passing up a stainless .38 Special DAO that they see, maybe check for the star, and report the SN to RENE.
Ruger DA's are still pretty thinly followed by collectors. We need more people to sit up and pay attention! There were quite a few scarce to rare models and variations made over the 17 years of production, making for a lot of possibilities for collecting.
I have owned 2 each of the GF84-NYCPD and GS83-NYCPD guns and passed up a few others that I have seen on auction sites because they did not upgrade the ones I have. The first of these reported to RENE was 162-41574 in Sep, 2005 and I have since sold that one due to upgrading to the boxed gun above. I reported the first GS83-NYCPD in May, 2006. So they really are a recent "discovery" for collectors. Of the four that I have info on, one came from a shop in Amarillo, TX, the other three all came from NY state shops (Staten Island, Oyster Bay, and Nanuet). It makes sense that the best bet for finding these would be around the NYC area.
I would be a bit surprised to learn that any of these are still in use as service weapons. But I guess if it is a 30,000 man :shock: force, there may be a chance of it. Geez, the whole county I live in is only about 35,000 :lol:
One clarification on the numbers - there were around 1.25 million -Six series DA's of all types (Security-Six, Speed-Six, and Police Service-Six). Not sure how many of each but probably the majority were Security-Sixes (maybe 65%) with the Service-Six coming in a respectable second (maybe 35%) and the lowest production being the Speed-Six.
Thanks for the welcome aboard, WMG.....I'm more the shooter than collector, and am buying this dog just to have a gun to sweat all over underneath an untucked t-shirt this summer and to save my girlfriend's gun from such an unkind fate....I had an OMBH .45 Colt with grossly undersized chambers/grossly oversized bore that didn't stay long...had a like-new flattop .357 with roughly drilled bore that didn't stay long....i've got a battered/pitted flatgate .22 that still impresses match shooters with its ability to hit 20ga hulls at 50yds and I'll never sell that one....if the Service Six shoots good, it'll probably stay forever, too, but it's a dog, an overpriced dog, but close enough to match for my girlfriend's gun to keep us both happy...here's the seller's page which shows it in all of its glory, looks to have been treated to a Scotchbrite pad on the frame at some point before even more rust?
http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=5582
As for scarce, i look at it this way....the guns came out at the end of the Security/Speed/Service run, with only two years or so for only so many rookies coming into the force to pick the Ruger out of the approved gun field, plus maybe a few old hands traded what they had for a new Ruger instead of something else...so i doubt there are thousands, maybe not even hundreds, which makes them pretty unique. I like the idea of having a beater carry gun where I probably will never meet anyone else who owns one or has seen one...a beater carry gun that probably will outlive me by a wide margin, even if I shoot the snot out of it for the rest of my life....
i consider the gun design to be one of Ruger's better efforts, built right and tight, simple and robust, simpler than guns that followed, amply strong without being overbuilt...there's a lot to be said for a gun which only weighs about 1/2oz more than a S&W M10, about 1/2oz less than a S&W M19, fits in both their holsters, but can consume virtually an unlimited diet of hottest loads while never needing a trip back to the factory....
http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=5582
As for scarce, i look at it this way....the guns came out at the end of the Security/Speed/Service run, with only two years or so for only so many rookies coming into the force to pick the Ruger out of the approved gun field, plus maybe a few old hands traded what they had for a new Ruger instead of something else...so i doubt there are thousands, maybe not even hundreds, which makes them pretty unique. I like the idea of having a beater carry gun where I probably will never meet anyone else who owns one or has seen one...a beater carry gun that probably will outlive me by a wide margin, even if I shoot the snot out of it for the rest of my life....
i consider the gun design to be one of Ruger's better efforts, built right and tight, simple and robust, simpler than guns that followed, amply strong without being overbuilt...there's a lot to be said for a gun which only weighs about 1/2oz more than a S&W M10, about 1/2oz less than a S&W M19, fits in both their holsters, but can consume virtually an unlimited diet of hottest loads while never needing a trip back to the factory....
My point is that the collector community via this board and RENE has uncovered 10 or more of the two varieties in just a few short years. Statistically, that is a significant number. Especially for models that are not well followed by collectors (few people are paying attention to the DA's in general) and never sold to the public (the NYCPD models) when new.
Collectible SA Rugers made in low quantities and actively sought by collectors have some pretty good data available due to the collector following. Collectors have uncovered about half of the roughly 260 factory engraved Single Sixes made in the 1950's as they are easy to spot, well known, highly desireable, and expensive. But then the percentages drop off pretty fast getting into rare guns that are less recognizable to the untrained eye. Still widely followed, I would think that collectors only know of 15-20% at most of the rarer flattops, oddball Super Blackhawks like the long frames and 6.5" barrel models, and many of the brass frame guns. And collectors have been seeking those for decades.
With these GF84-NYCPD and GS83-NYCPD guns, there have been about 10 reported by 3 or 4 guys on this forum in a couple of years of awareness of their existance. I would be surprised if that very casual observation by only a few folks for a short time period has uncovered even 1% of the total.
We have better data on the newer models and know that there were roughly 3000 GPNY and another 3000 SPNY revolvers contracted. And then there were production overruns.
So my estimate is that there were indeed a combined total of hundreds of the GF84-NYCPD and GS83-NYCPD made, and quite probably over 1000.
If I had to guess, I might say that the order was something like 800 of the Service-Six and another 400 of the Speed-Six. Maybe 1000/500. But likely fewer of the 3" round butt Speed-Six than the 4" square butt Service-Six
Remember that in the final days of the -Six series, the Security-Six had already been dropped from production since it was replaced by the GP100. But the Service-Six and Speed-Six remained in production because the GP was not immediately available with fixed sights or short barrels. The demand for the fixed sight guns which kept Ruger producing them longer was entirely driven by LE needs.
Collectible SA Rugers made in low quantities and actively sought by collectors have some pretty good data available due to the collector following. Collectors have uncovered about half of the roughly 260 factory engraved Single Sixes made in the 1950's as they are easy to spot, well known, highly desireable, and expensive. But then the percentages drop off pretty fast getting into rare guns that are less recognizable to the untrained eye. Still widely followed, I would think that collectors only know of 15-20% at most of the rarer flattops, oddball Super Blackhawks like the long frames and 6.5" barrel models, and many of the brass frame guns. And collectors have been seeking those for decades.
With these GF84-NYCPD and GS83-NYCPD guns, there have been about 10 reported by 3 or 4 guys on this forum in a couple of years of awareness of their existance. I would be surprised if that very casual observation by only a few folks for a short time period has uncovered even 1% of the total.
We have better data on the newer models and know that there were roughly 3000 GPNY and another 3000 SPNY revolvers contracted. And then there were production overruns.
So my estimate is that there were indeed a combined total of hundreds of the GF84-NYCPD and GS83-NYCPD made, and quite probably over 1000.
If I had to guess, I might say that the order was something like 800 of the Service-Six and another 400 of the Speed-Six. Maybe 1000/500. But likely fewer of the 3" round butt Speed-Six than the 4" square butt Service-Six
Remember that in the final days of the -Six series, the Security-Six had already been dropped from production since it was replaced by the GP100. But the Service-Six and Speed-Six remained in production because the GP was not immediately available with fixed sights or short barrels. The demand for the fixed sight guns which kept Ruger producing them longer was entirely driven by LE needs.
"Weaselmenatgravy"
"Not sure how many of each but probably the majority were Security-Sixes (maybe 65%) with the Service-Six coming in a respectable second (maybe 35%) and the lowest production being the Speed-Six."
65% + 35% = 100% which would mean VERY few Speed -Sixs indeed!
I have a GS-83 that I have not tried to letter yet. Don't think they're too common either. (I'm waiting on a letter for a certain 6", stainles, low back Security Six that wandered into my safe a short while ago. )
Terry T
"Not sure how many of each but probably the majority were Security-Sixes (maybe 65%) with the Service-Six coming in a respectable second (maybe 35%) and the lowest production being the Speed-Six."
65% + 35% = 100% which would mean VERY few Speed -Sixs indeed!
I have a GS-83 that I have not tried to letter yet. Don't think they're too common either. (I'm waiting on a letter for a certain 6", stainles, low back Security Six that wandered into my safe a short while ago.
)Terry T
Yeah, OK, so you're saying I should stop yelling at my son for bringing home B's in math?
I had it in my head that Speed Sixes were about 15-20% of production and that Security Sixes were over half. But something didn't add up!
So let's try again and say, maybe:
Security Six: 55%
Service Six: 30%
Speed Six 15%
Yeah, I saw the note about that old frame GA-36 somehow making its way behind enemy lines against all odds. Geez, after I oogled over it and even asked permission of the former owner to reproduce his pic. :roll:
I had it in my head that Speed Sixes were about 15-20% of production and that Security Sixes were over half. But something didn't add up!
So let's try again and say, maybe:
Security Six: 55%
Service Six: 30%
Speed Six 15%
Yeah, I saw the note about that old frame GA-36 somehow making its way behind enemy lines against all odds. Geez, after I oogled over it and even asked permission of the former owner to reproduce his pic. :roll:
All in fun, of course.
While I think I agree with the 55% for security six, I'm thinking there are more speed sixs out there so I think I would go with your higher number.
Security Six 55%
Service Six 25%
Speed Six 20%
I seem to find more speed sixes out there than 15% would suggest. It could be that many / most of the service sixes were destroyed after the police agencies were finished with them and that is why we don't see them on the secondary market.
I would also suggest that of total production for each type, only a small percentage are in .38 spl.
Security Six: 15% are in .38 spl (With maybe only 5% .38 spl. in 6")
Service Six 25%
Speed Six 20%
So a .38 speed six would be .2 X .2 times total production (.04 or 4%). Throw in the various configurations and one quickly gets to some small prodution numbers even though 1.2M "Sixes" of all kinds were produced.
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". Does having an outlawed gun make me an outlaw or is it because I'm an outlaw that I have an outlawed gun? :?
Terry T
While I think I agree with the 55% for security six, I'm thinking there are more speed sixs out there so I think I would go with your higher number.
Security Six 55%
Service Six 25%
Speed Six 20%
I seem to find more speed sixes out there than 15% would suggest. It could be that many / most of the service sixes were destroyed after the police agencies were finished with them and that is why we don't see them on the secondary market.
I would also suggest that of total production for each type, only a small percentage are in .38 spl.
Security Six: 15% are in .38 spl (With maybe only 5% .38 spl. in 6")
Service Six 25%
Speed Six 20%
So a .38 speed six would be .2 X .2 times total production (.04 or 4%). Throw in the various configurations and one quickly gets to some small prodution numbers even though 1.2M "Sixes" of all kinds were produced.
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". Does having an outlawed gun make me an outlaw or is it because I'm an outlaw that I have an outlawed gun? :?
Terry T
I think there were far more Service Sixes than Speed Sixes because the Speed Six was generally bought as an undercover piece with the short barrel (hence the scarcity of the 4" guns) and the Service Six was typically sold in the 4" configuration as a standard duty sidearm (so the 2.75" is much less common). While some cities may have nearly as many plain clothes cops as uniforms, most of the less urban areas and state troopers, sheriffs, etc were largely uniformed officers. And because of Ruger's desire to sell to LE, they subsidized the Police Service Six for several years, making it cheaper than the Speed Six. So the always budget-conscious LE agencies were doubly motivated to order the Service Six where practical.
I also disagree with the 15% of Security Sixes in .38 Special. That's 3 out of 20 and you just don't see them that often. If you discount the early fixed sight SDA guns that were marked as Security Sixes (Service Sixes before their time), I think the number of true adjustable sight .38 Security Sixes is really down around 1%. They were never cataloged, except in the first few years when everything was cataloged and the market was untested. And the whole point of selling .38's was for LE jurisdictions that did not allow .357 - and the big market there was the cheaper fixed sight guns. But there were may have been more 6" .38 Security Sixes than the other barrel lengths. There was that load of early frame blue guns, and the later CHP run of stainless ones. There were occasional orders of 4" Security Sixes in .38 but they are very hard to find. I don't believe I have ever seen an adjustable sight Security Six in .38 with the 2.75" barrel, but they are mentioned in RENE in the early frame. But the SN range stated in RENE certainly does not imply exclusion of .357's within the range.
Since we both agree on 55% for Security Sixes, and there were about 1.25 million -Six series guns made, the number of Security Sixes would be around 687,500 and 15% of that is 103,125... seems high for adjustable sight '38's. Even 1% is 6,875 which may still be high.
The fixed sight guns were where the .38 market was. I agree that quite a few LE guns will never see private hands and that helps explain the lower numbers of fixed sight guns as well as .38 Special guns encountered. I don't really have any good data to dispute the 25% of Service Sixes or 20% of Speed Sixes in .38, but I would also not be too surprised to learn that it was higher than that.
I also disagree with the 15% of Security Sixes in .38 Special. That's 3 out of 20 and you just don't see them that often. If you discount the early fixed sight SDA guns that were marked as Security Sixes (Service Sixes before their time), I think the number of true adjustable sight .38 Security Sixes is really down around 1%. They were never cataloged, except in the first few years when everything was cataloged and the market was untested. And the whole point of selling .38's was for LE jurisdictions that did not allow .357 - and the big market there was the cheaper fixed sight guns. But there were may have been more 6" .38 Security Sixes than the other barrel lengths. There was that load of early frame blue guns, and the later CHP run of stainless ones. There were occasional orders of 4" Security Sixes in .38 but they are very hard to find. I don't believe I have ever seen an adjustable sight Security Six in .38 with the 2.75" barrel, but they are mentioned in RENE in the early frame. But the SN range stated in RENE certainly does not imply exclusion of .357's within the range.
Since we both agree on 55% for Security Sixes, and there were about 1.25 million -Six series guns made, the number of Security Sixes would be around 687,500 and 15% of that is 103,125... seems high for adjustable sight '38's. Even 1% is 6,875 which may still be high.
The fixed sight guns were where the .38 market was. I agree that quite a few LE guns will never see private hands and that helps explain the lower numbers of fixed sight guns as well as .38 Special guns encountered. I don't really have any good data to dispute the 25% of Service Sixes or 20% of Speed Sixes in .38, but I would also not be too surprised to learn that it was higher than that.
"Weaselmeatgravy"
All in friendly speculation until Ruger releases their production numbers.
Bottom Line: .38 spl are less common in all Ruger double actions and least common in Security Sixes.
It remains to be seen if the Speed Sixes are the least common - I do think that civilian sales may have been split between Security Six and Speed Six with little civilian sales of Service Sixes which would up the percentage of Speed Sixes. However, it's all just speculation at this time.
Sometimes it hard to remember the mind set we all had in the '60s and '70s. I just found a photo of LAPD officers taken in 1965 showing 6" adjustable sight revolvers in drop swivel holsters or high ride cross draw with individual cartridge loops on their duty belts. I would guess they are .38 spl. It seems quaint in today's era of high capacity autos in snatch resistant rigs. About 1960, my Dad bought a revolver in .38 S&W (not spl.) and thought it was just fine for home defense. My point is that a fixed sight .38 spl. was considered just fine as a home defense piece by many civilians in the '60s and '70s.
I've also heard it said that if we practiced trauma medicine like we did in the '50s, our murder rate would be 3 times higher. Folks buying guns in the '60s and '70s were still thinking '50s medical care.
Some day Ruger will release their production numbers, hopefully within our lifetimes.
Terry T
All in friendly speculation until Ruger releases their production numbers.
Bottom Line: .38 spl are less common in all Ruger double actions and least common in Security Sixes.
It remains to be seen if the Speed Sixes are the least common - I do think that civilian sales may have been split between Security Six and Speed Six with little civilian sales of Service Sixes which would up the percentage of Speed Sixes. However, it's all just speculation at this time.
Sometimes it hard to remember the mind set we all had in the '60s and '70s. I just found a photo of LAPD officers taken in 1965 showing 6" adjustable sight revolvers in drop swivel holsters or high ride cross draw with individual cartridge loops on their duty belts. I would guess they are .38 spl. It seems quaint in today's era of high capacity autos in snatch resistant rigs. About 1960, my Dad bought a revolver in .38 S&W (not spl.) and thought it was just fine for home defense. My point is that a fixed sight .38 spl. was considered just fine as a home defense piece by many civilians in the '60s and '70s.
I've also heard it said that if we practiced trauma medicine like we did in the '50s, our murder rate would be 3 times higher. Folks buying guns in the '60s and '70s were still thinking '50s medical care.
Some day Ruger will release their production numbers, hopefully within our lifetimes.
Terry T
Blue Brick
Bearcat
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2006
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I have a GF-84H DOB Sep 1980
Blue Brick
Bearcat
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2006
- Messages
- 62
Here's an example of LE thinking in 1976:
6" barrels were awkward for daily hip wear in a cruiser. The 4" was the best compromise for ease of carry and useful sight radius. Adjustable sights had a reputation for snagging on clothing and cutting flesh. Fixed sight guns were also cheaper and the taxpayers were often footing the bill (and when they were not, the individual officer who also had to feed his family was). The .357 Magnum was deemed too powerful and thus politically incorrect in many jurisdictions.
Ruger met the demand with the Police Service Six in .38 Special for markets that prohibited more powerful cartridges, and in .357 for areas that accepted it. They didn't care which caliber they sold, they both cost the same to produce, Ruger was simply interested in major penetration of the lucrative LE market.
However, starting in 1973 after the catalog lineup settled down a bit (references to adjustable sight .38 Special guns were deleted, as were references to 6" fixed sight guns, and the Speed Six was introduced in both calibers but only blue at first), Ruger also made some price adjustments which can only be attributed to their desire to sell to LE. This was the substantial discounting of the .38 Special guns. At this point, the .38 caliber SDA82, SDA84, SS82, and SS84 all carried an MSRP of $91 versus the .357 models SDA32, SDA34, SS32, and SS34 which were MSRP $102. The stainless .38 GF82 and GF84 were $116 versus the .357 GF32 and GF34 at $127. Not because it cost less to make a .38 Special, but because they saw the LE market as the driving force for .38 Special sales and they subsidized that market to gain a foothold.
Starting with the 1974 Distributor price sheet, Ruger proclaimed their intent by adding this footnote below the DA revolver section:
We are anxious to be of special service to Police Departments and Law Enforcement Agencies. Accordingly, we urge our Distributors to indicate "Police Customer" on orders when appropriate. Also Ruger Distributors should not hesitate to contact us in regard to our furnishing double action revolvers with specifiactions other than those listed in our catalog, if the order is for a police agency and is for a substantial quantity.
Then in 1975, coincident with an overall price increase, the price differential between blue .38's and blue .357's increased from $11 to $18 with the .38's priced at $112 versus the .357's at $130. The stainless guns went to $135 for .38 and $149 for .357. Because the sales on the .38 Specials resulted in a loss (or perhaps, more of a loss - WBR was quoted once as saying that the company never made a dime on the entire -Six series DA line), the .38 Special guns starting in 1975 carried an asterisk next to their entries in the price sheets:
* SHIPMENTS RESTRICTED TO ORDERS SPECIFICALLY FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE
In 1978, the LE restriction went even further, extending to ALL fixed sight models (Service Six and Speed Six, all calibers, including 9mm in blue at this point). The price differences were more substantial by then with blue .38 FS guns at $118, blue .357 & 9mm FS guns at $140, and blue (.357 only) AS guns at $172.50. Clearly the LE guns were being subsidized by the Security Six. This is the time frame when I first had my lust for a stainless Speed Six and they just could not be found anywhere. And one of the shops I frequented was an LE supply house in Denver, and the shop owner would have sold me one if he got one that was not allocated to LE, but they just didn't show. I finally settled on a blue one but it took a while even to find that, I think it was 1980 before I found the blue gun.
In 1979, the .38 Special subsidy went away. Both calibers in fixed sight guns then sold for $140 in blue, $154 in stainless. The adjustable sight Security Six went for $177.50 in blue and $192 in stainless. But now the Big Grip target (T) models came out and sold for a premium. Ruger must have felt that they had penetrated the LE market well enough at this point that they no longer needed to subsidize the .38 Special (and as more and more agencies began to allow the .357, it became less important to make those .38 sales).
1980 saw an increase in the 9mm guns over the .38 and .357 models. Those were a niche market anyway and maybe the cost increase was justified by the necessary inclusion of the moon clips.
In 1982, Ruger must have seen another opportunity in the Speed Six. It was a popular seller with private citizens as well as LE, so it got a larger price hike than the Service Six, which was still largely targeted toward the LE agencies. From this point throughout the end of production in 1988, the Service Six continued to be offered at a discount to the Speed Six.
The Security Six was dropped in 1985 with the MSRP of a stainless model at $338 (standard grips). The GP100 showed up in 1986 at $340. The GP100 was at first only offered in stainless, .357 Mag, adjustable sights. The fixed sight Police Service Six and Speed Six continued to be offered in both blue and stainless and in both .38 and .357 through 1988. The blue GP100 appeared in 1987. In 1989, the fixed sight GP came out in both .38 and .357 to replace the -Six series fixed sight guns, and the 5 shot SP101 came out that same year in .38 Special only.
In the -Six series, only three models had the staying power to last from 1970 until 1988. Those were the blue, fixed sight, square butt guns, .357 models SDA32, SDA34, and .38 model SDA84. In the 1970-1974 time frame, these were marked as Security Six, but the name changed to Police Service Six in 1975 to cater toward the LE crowd.
So most .38 Special guns were sold to LE and often at the exclusion of even being available to the public due to the discount to capture LE market share. And the Speed Six was not offered in the early years, and not offered in stainless for a couple more years. Then for a several years, the Speed Six was more expensive than the Service Six. The bread and butter duty weapon in Ruger's line up was the SDA84 and later the stainless GF84. Where allowed, the SDA34 and GF34 were sold but at a premium over the .38 for years.
The 4" heavy (H code) barrels came out in 1978 and became all but standard by the mid 1980's and were no longer noted in the later sheets.
The 3" barrels were never cataloged. They appear in the later years but the 2.75" barrel guns were the only snubbies cataloged. All 3" barrel -Six series guns should be thought of as collectible. They are most often seen on Speed Sixes (the U.S. Postal Inspector contract being of this type, and many of the remaining GS33P guns were likely overruns of the GS33PS) but the Service Sixes also sported the 3" tube occasionally. I do not believe that the Security Six exists with a 3" barrel, which came out in 1985 as the Security Six was fading away. But it is possible that a few were made.
6" barrels were awkward for daily hip wear in a cruiser. The 4" was the best compromise for ease of carry and useful sight radius. Adjustable sights had a reputation for snagging on clothing and cutting flesh. Fixed sight guns were also cheaper and the taxpayers were often footing the bill (and when they were not, the individual officer who also had to feed his family was). The .357 Magnum was deemed too powerful and thus politically incorrect in many jurisdictions.
Ruger met the demand with the Police Service Six in .38 Special for markets that prohibited more powerful cartridges, and in .357 for areas that accepted it. They didn't care which caliber they sold, they both cost the same to produce, Ruger was simply interested in major penetration of the lucrative LE market.
However, starting in 1973 after the catalog lineup settled down a bit (references to adjustable sight .38 Special guns were deleted, as were references to 6" fixed sight guns, and the Speed Six was introduced in both calibers but only blue at first), Ruger also made some price adjustments which can only be attributed to their desire to sell to LE. This was the substantial discounting of the .38 Special guns. At this point, the .38 caliber SDA82, SDA84, SS82, and SS84 all carried an MSRP of $91 versus the .357 models SDA32, SDA34, SS32, and SS34 which were MSRP $102. The stainless .38 GF82 and GF84 were $116 versus the .357 GF32 and GF34 at $127. Not because it cost less to make a .38 Special, but because they saw the LE market as the driving force for .38 Special sales and they subsidized that market to gain a foothold.
Starting with the 1974 Distributor price sheet, Ruger proclaimed their intent by adding this footnote below the DA revolver section:
We are anxious to be of special service to Police Departments and Law Enforcement Agencies. Accordingly, we urge our Distributors to indicate "Police Customer" on orders when appropriate. Also Ruger Distributors should not hesitate to contact us in regard to our furnishing double action revolvers with specifiactions other than those listed in our catalog, if the order is for a police agency and is for a substantial quantity.
Then in 1975, coincident with an overall price increase, the price differential between blue .38's and blue .357's increased from $11 to $18 with the .38's priced at $112 versus the .357's at $130. The stainless guns went to $135 for .38 and $149 for .357. Because the sales on the .38 Specials resulted in a loss (or perhaps, more of a loss - WBR was quoted once as saying that the company never made a dime on the entire -Six series DA line), the .38 Special guns starting in 1975 carried an asterisk next to their entries in the price sheets:
* SHIPMENTS RESTRICTED TO ORDERS SPECIFICALLY FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE
In 1978, the LE restriction went even further, extending to ALL fixed sight models (Service Six and Speed Six, all calibers, including 9mm in blue at this point). The price differences were more substantial by then with blue .38 FS guns at $118, blue .357 & 9mm FS guns at $140, and blue (.357 only) AS guns at $172.50. Clearly the LE guns were being subsidized by the Security Six. This is the time frame when I first had my lust for a stainless Speed Six and they just could not be found anywhere. And one of the shops I frequented was an LE supply house in Denver, and the shop owner would have sold me one if he got one that was not allocated to LE, but they just didn't show. I finally settled on a blue one but it took a while even to find that, I think it was 1980 before I found the blue gun.
In 1979, the .38 Special subsidy went away. Both calibers in fixed sight guns then sold for $140 in blue, $154 in stainless. The adjustable sight Security Six went for $177.50 in blue and $192 in stainless. But now the Big Grip target (T) models came out and sold for a premium. Ruger must have felt that they had penetrated the LE market well enough at this point that they no longer needed to subsidize the .38 Special (and as more and more agencies began to allow the .357, it became less important to make those .38 sales).
1980 saw an increase in the 9mm guns over the .38 and .357 models. Those were a niche market anyway and maybe the cost increase was justified by the necessary inclusion of the moon clips.
In 1982, Ruger must have seen another opportunity in the Speed Six. It was a popular seller with private citizens as well as LE, so it got a larger price hike than the Service Six, which was still largely targeted toward the LE agencies. From this point throughout the end of production in 1988, the Service Six continued to be offered at a discount to the Speed Six.
The Security Six was dropped in 1985 with the MSRP of a stainless model at $338 (standard grips). The GP100 showed up in 1986 at $340. The GP100 was at first only offered in stainless, .357 Mag, adjustable sights. The fixed sight Police Service Six and Speed Six continued to be offered in both blue and stainless and in both .38 and .357 through 1988. The blue GP100 appeared in 1987. In 1989, the fixed sight GP came out in both .38 and .357 to replace the -Six series fixed sight guns, and the 5 shot SP101 came out that same year in .38 Special only.
In the -Six series, only three models had the staying power to last from 1970 until 1988. Those were the blue, fixed sight, square butt guns, .357 models SDA32, SDA34, and .38 model SDA84. In the 1970-1974 time frame, these were marked as Security Six, but the name changed to Police Service Six in 1975 to cater toward the LE crowd.
So most .38 Special guns were sold to LE and often at the exclusion of even being available to the public due to the discount to capture LE market share. And the Speed Six was not offered in the early years, and not offered in stainless for a couple more years. Then for a several years, the Speed Six was more expensive than the Service Six. The bread and butter duty weapon in Ruger's line up was the SDA84 and later the stainless GF84. Where allowed, the SDA34 and GF34 were sold but at a premium over the .38 for years.
The 4" heavy (H code) barrels came out in 1978 and became all but standard by the mid 1980's and were no longer noted in the later sheets.
The 3" barrels were never cataloged. They appear in the later years but the 2.75" barrel guns were the only snubbies cataloged. All 3" barrel -Six series guns should be thought of as collectible. They are most often seen on Speed Sixes (the U.S. Postal Inspector contract being of this type, and many of the remaining GS33P guns were likely overruns of the GS33PS) but the Service Sixes also sported the 3" tube occasionally. I do not believe that the Security Six exists with a 3" barrel, which came out in 1985 as the Security Six was fading away. But it is possible that a few were made.
"Weaselmeatgravy"
THANK YOU! Very informative - I do not have as many year by year and law enforcement price sheets as you do so I could not do the research that you have provided to us. This has been very helpful! I can see now how you've come to some of your conclusions and observations.
I have found an interesting photo from 1965 of LAPD using 6" revolvers. (I just bought the photo on e-bay so I feel that I can post it). You can see the high ride cross draw used as a way to draw in a car. I believe the revolvers are 6" S&W with adjustable sights. The cross draw was discarded because it presented the gun to a 'bad guy' facing the officer. The drop swivel hoster prevented a draw while seated in a patrol car.
I think your observations come from police thinking (and deadly mistakes) after this era and photo.
Terry T
THANK YOU! Very informative - I do not have as many year by year and law enforcement price sheets as you do so I could not do the research that you have provided to us. This has been very helpful! I can see now how you've come to some of your conclusions and observations.
I have found an interesting photo from 1965 of LAPD using 6" revolvers. (I just bought the photo on e-bay so I feel that I can post it). You can see the high ride cross draw used as a way to draw in a car. I believe the revolvers are 6" S&W with adjustable sights. The cross draw was discarded because it presented the gun to a 'bad guy' facing the officer. The drop swivel hoster prevented a draw while seated in a patrol car.
I think your observations come from police thinking (and deadly mistakes) after this era and photo.
Terry T
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