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Selena

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Selena, I agree.
Let me see if I can use different words to describe what I think I understand.

There are some fields that require a degree, while others do not. While some can get a degree
without doing actual work, those that learn to work AND get a degree, do very well. For those
that, for what ever reason, do not have a degree, it simply comes down to how hard they are
willing to work. I do not have a degree, but did fairly well as a computer programmer, because
my brain works that way. I've seen many that have a degree yet never really learned to program.

Key point is IF they are willing to work.
Not just put in time, not just go through the motions, but do the real work.
Success only comes before work, in the dictionary.
:cool:

Donna is not the type to play the weak woman role, she tried it once when she was 11 and did not like the consequences. She grew up with a farm work ethic.

While it's true many crafts do not require a degree, let me remind you that at one time Purdue offered a 4 year degree in blacksmithy. With new technology and new techniques many of the job titles that the bottom rung could perform and earn a decent living. My own industry is a good example, my great grandfather would be overwhelmed trying to plant corn on a tractor with moisture & population sensors, GPS mapping and a couple of hundred other electronic devices. That requires training of some sort either formal or informal. Ed and Dave spend most of the winter studying technical manuals. out of necessity.

My grandfather had a rather pithy explanation of why the country is going to perdition in a basket. The theory is that in his day the complete idiots always could have a farm job. In Dad's prime farming became too complicated and they were left with the army. In my day that army tightened it's standards and all the idiots had left was civil service and politics. I'll leave it to wiser heads than mine to comment on the accuracy of the statement.
 

Mike J

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The way our apprenticeship works tuition is free as long as someone stays union for a certain period of time after they finish school. Currently we have a 4 year program. When work is slow contract negotiations can be rough. This has caused it to be a 5 year program at times. A first year apprentice makes half journeyman's scale plus fringes (insurance-pension). There are pay increases every year. After 4 years he makes full scale. While I didn't do it I have known many people that went through our apprenticeship program become contractors, shop foreman, field superintendents, project managers, etc. If someone is intelligent, ambitious & has a good work ethic they can go far. There are ways to make a good living without going to college or incurring a large amount of debt. It really all comes down to what a person wants to do.

I agree with Blume about student loans. It is a racket
 

Gator89

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nThe theory is that in his day the complete idiots always could have a farm job. In Dad's prime farming became too complicated and they were left with the army. In my day that army tightened it's standards and all the idiots had left was civil service and politics.


The Army is tossing its mandate for potential recruits to have a high school diploma or GED certificate to enlist in the service, in one of the most dramatic moves yet in the escalating recruiting crisis hitting the entire Defense Department.
 
Joined
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Richmond Texas USA
Mobuck:
I gotta say, I’m really impressed with your post. It makes a lot of sense, especially the last couple sentences.

I had very minimal student loans to repay, and it was never an issue. Same with my wife.

Selena: the holes in your theory about HVAC and welders is their future salary. Sure they can get a job right away and make some money. But in 10 years, most of them will still be punching a clock working a job without much, if any, growth potential.

A four or six year advanced degree will exponentially increase someone’s chances of earning more money and climbing whatever corporate ladder they want.

I know most people here won’t agree with me, and that’s fine.
Well I for one do not agree.
In 1964 I invested $600.00=$5700.00 today to enroll in a trade school that taught Drafting. In my 41 year career in Petrochemical Engineering and Construction I went from Piping Draftsman, Piping Designer, Piping Design Lead, project design leader, project engineer, constructability engineer, field inspector, field superintendent, and mechanical commissioning engineer. I also had the pleasure to live and work in 7 different countries.

I will also disclose my yearly salaries not to brag but to show what can be done without a college degree and hard work and a willingness to learn.
These are in todays dollars
1967 = $90,000
1978 = $102,000
1999 = $147,600
2005 =$285,00 which was the year I retired at 62 by my choice.
These numbers DO NOT include bonuses or per diem for working outside the US or on US projects.

As far as a career in welding. It is damn hard work, my Dad and Grandfather were welders and I have spent a lot of time with welders in my job. Yes I also know how to weld. But you can also move up the ladder such as inspector, welding foreman and such.
I have also seen welder helpers become welders by being taught by the welder they were helping. The welders I know and was around were Pipe Welders which takes more training and test then Iron Welders.
Bottom line the Trade School worked for me and I was also very lucky to do what I did. As a benefit I probably spent 75% of my career without direct supervision. I had a job to do and did it.
 

Rick Courtright

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Don’t get me wrong, welding sounds like so much fun. I worked with one woman once, back in Seattle. Her boyfriend at the time was going to an Underwater Welding School.

Now that would be an incredible job.
Hi,

I haven't heard much about this for a few years, but some time ago, that was THE job the inmates at CIM (Chino Institute for Men here in SoCal) tried to learn. Money was good, and it seemed easier for the guys to get good paying jobs than the average felon who's never had anything in the way of training... they also got "schooled" in valuing your job, even if you don't like it.

Seemed like a good idea to me.

Rick C
 

Jeepnik

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I agree, but keep in mind the trade has already been taken over by robotics, however, Some one has to know how to program & operate the robots. Not to mention know how to fix them when the mess up. While I admit I would have preferred she chose medicine, Donna is wise enough to research all her options. Who knows, after a few years she may decide to take up my original plan and go for a degree in engineering. But that's up to her. I didn't follow my Dad's advice to my future and I'd be foolish to think she would mine.
Mass production welding is now mostly done by computerized machines. By most welding isn’t done in a manner a machine can be set up for. Or, the setup time and costs would far exceed what a good human can do.
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
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Greenville, SC: USA
The nature of economics and the ever increasing cost always baffles me.... just like the 21k to learn to weld.
I was contemplating this yesterday after a customer told me the guy he had waited 2months for to pressure wash his house informed him it would cost more because of the cost of gas.... my thought, which I kept to myself, was if the guy has to raise his price because the gas his pump is using went up $2 a gallon then he needs to take a class on pricing in a service business. My point is 'they' are always adding some extra fee to what ever you are paying for but it never gets taken off, Years ago they added a tax to replacing your tires here in S.C. and called it a landfill fee... cost to bury the tires right... then 'they' decided tires needed to be recycled and could not go in the landfill... but guess what... the extra charge is still there.
 

Mobuck

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missouri
If I was physically able AND closer to the job site, I could start as a fabricator(welder) at the plant where my younger Son works with a minimal 'skills test' which I can easily pass. Basically wear your steel toe boots and safety glasses to the interview cause they're going to want you to start IMMEDIATELY. Downside is at 70 years old, I'm not going to stand bent over a welding table for 10 hours a day and the extra commute time/expense eats up 25% of that $200 a day pay.
 

Huskerguy72

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Mar 19, 2017
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43
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Central Kansas
I recently retired from a nearly 40 year stint in education. Several of those years were spent teaching auto collision at a technical college, then a HS, a HS principal, a director of a technical college and finally ending my career in private Christian Schools. I have some thoughts, obviously.

The reason college education is so expensive is because money is so easy to get. Just sign here for the student loan and you can worry, or mostly NEVER think about the payments later on. I blame the parents for that. A little planning and TEACH YOUR KIDS ABOUT MONEY and EDUCATION.

For career and technical education, avoid the private, for profit schools. They have great ads and sales people but their ROI is terrible. Several were shut down a few years ago because of the financial aid scams they were running. Where I live there were bringing in inner city kids to a 2 year, for profit school to play basketball. The amount of debt they accumulated was remarkable, they had no concept along with their parents who signed loans along with them.

In my state of Kansas nearly every HS student can attend a community or technical college for free and obtain a certificate in that area. Some may need to attend another year, no big deal, stay at home, get a PT job and pay as you go. Those are out there, you just have to take advantage of them and quit complaining about how much everything costs when there are options right under your noses!

No one needs to go into debt to attend any college or school. You choose to that but you don't need to. I preached these to my students and to parents as well for nearly 40 years.
1. Teach your student to save for their future, it starts young, doesn't need to be a lot of money, just start and talk about it when they are old enough
2. Develop good work habits, and teach them the importance of good, not perfect grades. Both my kids had 30+ ACT scores, one was a valedictorian. She was an incredibly hard worker and still is today. That work earned her multiple scholarships to the private Christian school of her choice.
3. I heard complain in HS, saying, if I just got paid for grades I would do better. Well, sometimes the payoff is in the future.
4. Take advantage of high schools that work with local community or technical colleges, get all the "free" education you can. So what if a kid decides after two years of welding, she/he doesn't want to do that everyday. They can easily do it part time while earning a BS degree if that is what they want to do.
5. It is a false narrative that technical degrees lead to endless jobs. I have countless numbers of students who now own their own businesses. A nephew who didn't want to go to a 4 year college as he was a hands on kid. He now designs production lines for Merch, has an AAS degree from a community college in industrial maintenance. He was recently offered a job for $140K with unreal benefits. His skills are in high demand.
6. After my retirement I was asked to speak to students who were about to graduate from the technical college I ran. The room was full of diesel mechanics, welders, and others in the mechanical trades. I congratulated them on their success and then told them to look around the room and size themselves up against others in the room. I tell them the more valuable they are, with skills that go above their classmates, the more in demand and the more they will get paid. It is really that simple.
7. Teach your darn kids about money and how to manage it. Work PT, go to school, take a few classes as you can afford them. Sitting out a year rarely works, but for some it can. I saw too many sit out and wind up buying a car and getting more debt.
8. There are tons and I am not exaggerating, of company sponsored opportunities right now. A local company, Kubota, will pay people $17/hr to learn to weld plus room and board and guarantee a job for 20-$22 an hour depending on shift.
9. Teach your kids to earn what they receive, hard work never killed kids. Our kids raised 4H animals and were responsible for buying them and taking care of them.
10. I could go on but lastly you just have to teach kids the value of education and really spend some time figuring out what God has gifted them to do. At one HS I worked out I developed a program to help students determine what talents they were blessed with and how that translated to a job. Not just a minimum wage job though, a career. Too often, kids get sucked into something that mom and dad talked about or it sounds good but I firmly believe each person has abilities built into them for a special life and career.
 
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Yes, she is serious... Despite my best efforts she somehow inherited the OMB (obsessive machine builder) gene from her great uncle. As for dirty and nasty work... She was raised on work, starting at mucking out barns to cleaning vacuum milking systems. Two months ago she helped her uncle fix a "honey wagon" half full of animal by-product. FYI this is a farm kid we are talking about, What city people consider work your rump off entry level is a slow day for a farm kid. I appreciate your concern that my poor fragile little girl may be getting in over her head in a man's profession but... Sister Beatrice would frown at my further response. Go in peace sir, bless your heart.
Guess I didn't get my point across. Nothing whatsoever to do with being female, little and fragile or big and bovine, I have given the very same thoughts to anybody. Entry level welding jobs just flat suck and that's where 90 plus percent will go out of a tech school. Those that are getting the better entry level positions at someplace with room for advancement and career development are for the most part not coming from the tech schools.
If she likes that kind of stuff maybe help her aim a little higher, might take a few years for the investment to pay off.
The reason every place is advertising for entry level welders is the pay is crap and for the most part so are the working conditions.
Best advice I gave you was join the AWS, participate in a local chapter and see how it goes for a bit, maybe $100 per year.
Sister Beatrice ain't here so feel free to PM me with any special *&%$ off message if you still feel the need.
 

Selena

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A long way from heaven and far too close to Chicag
Guess I didn't get my point across. Nothing whatsoever to do with being female, little and fragile or big and bovine, I have given the very same thoughts to anybody. Entry level welding jobs just flat suck and that's where 90 plus percent will go out of a tech school. Those that are getting the better entry level positions at someplace with room for advancement and career development are for the most part not coming from the tech schools.
If she likes that kind of stuff maybe help her aim a little higher, might take a few years for the investment to pay off.
The reason every place is advertising for entry level welders is the pay is crap and for the most part so are the working conditions.
Best advice I gave you was join the AWS, participate in a local chapter and see how it goes for a bit, maybe $100 per year.
Sister Beatrice ain't here so feel free to PM me with any special *&%$ off message if you still feel the need.
OK, She has been "helping" a certain unnamed idiot (who shall remain my brother) on his little projects since she was a toddler. She has been exposed to the redneck engineer syndrome for far too long. Just like the mentioned UI, (unnamed idiot for a certain person) followed my uncle around through his many atrocities to the peace and dignity of the state of Indiana. Eventually she is going to realize the OMB gene is going to require at least cursory knowledge of math and engineering. Not to mention metallurgy and half a dozen other disciplines. I don't see her attending Lincoln Tech as the end of her education but am depending on her ambition and curiosity to make it just the beginning.

Sister Beatrice is always in my heart and quite frankly, bless your heart expresses my sentiment so well.
 
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Huskerguy72, that is a great post. I noticed several times you mention “parents, teach your kids about money.” I know it’s important.

My biggest question is why isn’t money taught more in public education? It’s almost secondary…IF it’s mentioned at all. In fact money is almost a taboo subject to be taught in public school. Even private religious schools.

The stock market is or could be such a great tool for math. I’ve never understood why it (the stock market) isn’t referenced more in math classes.

I guess though this isn’t the narrative of this thread. But just a thought.

Again, that was a great post.
 
Joined
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Because most of the "educators" do not understand it. They got their degrees without having
to understand money, how to EARN it, nor how to effectively utilize it.
Agreed. I did teach for a few years, mostly private Catholic schools. I never saw the subject being brought up once.

Well, enough of this…sorry, it’s too much of a thread drift,
 

Jeepnik

Hawkeye
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On the beach and in the hills
Way back in the dark ages, in junior high, they had a class called General Business. You leaned about handling a checking account, savings account and the stocks/bonds markets. And generally how to conduct the business of being a financially responsible adult.

No credit cards though. But that’s probably because Diner’s Club was the only one and you paid that off in full every month.

About the only debt folks had was a mortgage and maybe a car loan. Those were covered too.

The class was obviously aimed at 13/14 year old kids. But, the basics were all there.

I seem to remember it was a requirement not an elective.

Middle school kids could really use that type of education today. But, who would teach it. Between neighbors, friends and family I know quite a few teachers. Most I wouldn’t let balance my checkbook if they knew how.
 

RRM

Single-Sixer
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My biggest question is why isn’t money taught more in public education?

See #33 and they are way too busy teaching the important stuff like: how to tell what sex you are or if you are sexless.
 
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Actually my little “joke” thread has taken some interesting and thought provoking twists and turns.
Yes, i did read into the light hearted viewpoint. But the thread does raise some real questions about how the younger generation goes about getting an education these days.

One view on the high cost of universities and student loans. Universities do cost a lot, but those with higher tuition should have a higher caliber teaching staff. AND nicer facilities. Those are two big components of a university and they do cost money.
 

Mike J

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Well I for one do not agree.
In 1964 I invested $600.00=$5700.00 today to enroll in a trade school that taught Drafting. In my 41 year career in Petrochemical Engineering and Construction I went from Piping Draftsman, Piping Designer, Piping Design Lead, project design leader, project engineer, constructability engineer, field inspector, field superintendent, and mechanical commissioning engineer. I also had the pleasure to live and work in 7 different countries.

I will also disclose my yearly salaries not to brag but to show what can be done without a college degree and hard work and a willingness to learn.
These are in todays dollars
1967 = $90,000
1978 = $102,000
1999 = $147,600
2005 =$285,00 which was the year I retired at 62 by my choice.
These numbers DO NOT include bonuses or per diem for working outside the US or on US projects.

As far as a career in welding. It is damn hard work, my Dad and Grandfather were welders and I have spent a lot of time with welders in my job. Yes I also know how to weld. But you can also move up the ladder such as inspector, welding foreman and such.
I have also seen welder helpers become welders by being taught by the welder they were helping. The welders I know and was around were Pipe Welders which takes more training and test then Iron Welders.
Bottom line the Trade School worked for me and I was also very lucky to do what I did. As a benefit I probably spent 75% of my career without direct supervision. I had a job to do and did it.
I honestly wish the mechanical contractor I am employed by would hire a competent draftsman that understands what we do & how it has to be done. I believe they would save a lot of money even after compensating the person well. They sub the drawings out. Often it is obvious that whoever is making the drawings does not even have a rudimentary understanding of what we do. The drawings we are given often don't work. Our foremen, (I have had the opportunity to be one but declined. It is like a bad habit I gave it up years ago.) wind up having to take the general idea given by the print & make it work out. I honestly believe things have become less efficient as technology has progressed.
 

mikeAZ

Single-Sixer
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Apr 16, 2022
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Apache Junction, AZ
I served a 5 year Plumbing apprenticeship in Wisconsin many years ago. Luckily, I worked as a Pipefitter, Plumber and eventually a certified Pipe Welder later on. I was fortunate enough to work for one Company that would take any job... That resulted in work that included housing, dentist office, a Mormon Temple, schools, gas stations, a GM auto plant, power plant, paper mill, sewage plants, etc.

My Grand Parents were poor European refugees. (Ellis Islander's) I was the 1st. of my family line to have a trade.

Welding ability, whether Certified or not was ALWAYS a good tool to have in your pocket as well as being licensed in a trade.
 

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