How to shoot single actions..single action technique history

[Eli Chaps]

Rodfac,
Excellent pictures and commentary. And a great looking spread to boot. I notice in the photos you appear to use the distal joint of your trigger finger for applying pressure to the trigger. I use the same technique, contrary to most current advice to use the pad of the first joint of the finger for trigger control. I have tried that technique and it has never felt natural to me. I have more control and strength using the joint between the first two segments, concentrating on applying pressure straight to the rear. Also, in a hurried situation, the distal joint falls more naturally on the trigger than the pad of the first joint does. Just wondering if you have tried various methods of just where you apply pressure to the trigger and your conclusions?

I'm not Rodfac either but I hope you don't mind if I chime in...The reason the pad of the finger is stressed is to create a more linear line. The pull of the trigger should generate largely from the middle knuckle to the end of the finger. But, we don't nomrally operate our fingers that way in that position. We generally curl them to form a grip.

"Best practice" as they say, is to find the ends of the loops of the center fingerprints on the trigger. Then pull STRAIGHT back.

Try this: Place the very tip of your weak hand thumb against the center of the pad on your trigger finger. Focus on bringing the pad straight back to your body. Your first (distal) will bow back slightly, your middle knuckle will flex and your third (hand) shouldn't move. Now, place the tip of thumb into the joint of that first knuckle and try that same exercise. Much different result.

The pressure created against the knuckle does not allow it to flex and bow as easily and the tip of the finger will likely curl. It is that curl that can create muzzle pull.

Placing the pad of the finger on the trigger is NOT a natural thing. The natural thing is to settle the trigger into (or very near) the knuckle. It takes practice to train the finger otherwise.

I worked with the biggest man I've yet to ever encounter. He had a 28" neck and could pass a quarter through his wedding ring. He could do it.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Eli Chaps]

I also wanted to clarify what I said in my above post, that my grip would change for target shooting. What I should have said was that my stance would change. My grip would pretty much be the same.

I'd shift to a more "isocsoles" stance or even use the legs as Rodfac demonstrates.

 

[22bond]

Great info and photos from everyone.
Does anyone know what I am doing wrong if my weak hand (right) shoulder hurts when I shoot my BH 357/9mm using 38spl/9mm.
I don't have that problem showing my SR9,P85, etc.

 

[Rodfac]

22 Bond, Eli, and Yosemite...great thread...I haven't thought about some of these topics in a lota years.

The object as I think Eli said, and I agree with wholeheartedly, is a "straight to the rear pull on the trigger". For me, with my hands and finger length, I find that if I try to use the finger pad, the rest of my grip is too loose...and it pulls shots at random laterally for me. Hard to explain...if I use the the one pictured, letting my finger go where it feels normally, and use a slow but unstopped pull, I usually don't get a sideways movement in the sights as the shot breaks. And too, if I'm in a hurry...or stressed...or just forget all the rules...that trigger finger is going to go there naturally. So on my adjustable sight guns, I center the group for that stance, grip and pull.

If your fingers and hand size will allow it with out contortions, the finger pad pull, straight to the rear, is where you want to be. Could be, if you wanted to experiment a little, that a palm swell on the grip might give you enough space to allow the finger pad pull. I also find that stock Ruger grips are too thin for me. I make my own a might thicker near the top and it helps with the trigger finger placement, not to mention the recoil and grip consistency.

As pictured, it's what works for me, using a single action handgun...though I will readily concede that when my shots are out...they're usually out to the left (I'm right handed), and that my friends is caused by that knuckle pushing to the left as the shot breaks.

The pull, squeeze, whatever you want to call it, is a non-stop process for me. Once I'm on target and commit to the shot, it doesn't stop...I accept my wobble area and let the shot go where it will. I can hold the ten ring on the standard NRA 25 yd timed and rapid fire target face...that is to say that my wobble area is within those limits...my goal is to ALLOW the piece to fire without disturbing the wobble area...and a non-stop pull on the trigger allows me my best chance to do that... If I stop to "refine" the sights....it's a flinch or palmed shot looking for a place to happen.

One more thought...smooth trigger faces allow some sliding of the pad/knuckle on the surface. With a S&W with grooved trigger face, it's more difficult to get a good let off especially double action.

Regards,,,,it's what works for me...Rodfac

 

[w5lx]

Great information from all. I appreciate your thoughts. For myself, I've been letting my trigger fall where it does naturally (at the first joint) for over 50 years, and it's very hard to change now. I have tried using the pad of the first joint and I get very inconsistent results. I know.....practice, practice, practice. Thanks to all for a great discussion.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Excellent discussion and Rodfac there's surely no arguing with your results!

 

[Eli Chaps]

Great info and photos from everyone.
Does anyone know what I am doing wrong if my weak hand (right) shoulder hurts when I shoot my BH 357/9mm using 38spl/9mm.
I don't have that problem showing my SR9,P85, etc.

That's interesting, that your shoulder would hurt (?).

Same grip and stance when you shoot any of the various guns?

 

[22bond]

Great info and photos from everyone.
Does anyone know what I am doing wrong if my weak hand (right) shoulder hurts when I shoot my BH 357/9mm using 38spl/9mm.
I don't have that problem showing my SR9,P85, etc.

That's interesting, that your shoulder would hurt (?).

Same grip and stance when you shoot any of the various guns?

Same stance. Have trouble w/the grip because of the small BH grip.
Finally started to put the little pinky below the grip and in a way that doesn't hurt anymore.
With semiauto, most of the weight/force is on the strong hand.
Maybe w/revolver I need to do the same thing and not try to do this 70/30.
And try using the weak hand grip as show in the photos here.

 

[Rodfac]

Eli..Great pictures of Keith...from Sixguns right? I learned my back rest sitting position from his book. In the standing one, it looks like he's using the tip of his left hand index finger on the front of the trigger guard similar to your grip, but the gun may be in recoil. Keith had small hands, its commonly known, and his grips on single actions and S&W's should be viewed in that context.

Geez you've got me thinking again...who'd a thought at age 63? I've re-read your comments on the tip of the thumb on the pad of the trigger finger discussion several times now and the visual proof is there. Using the center of the pad, the knuckle moves outward from the frame, if a straight to the rear pull is used.

Picking up one of my mid frame Rugers, and using my standard grip I can see that I'm much closer to the "pad" than the knuckle. Too, when viewed from the top, I can see that the flesh just behind the knuckle touches the frame...a no-no that I've spent considerable time avoiding in training while shooting '03's, Garands and the like. Even that light touch will sometimes induce movement in the piece as the trigger is pulled. With the Rugers, there's no grip that I can use to eliminate that contact. Conversely, when shooting a S&W K frame with S&W's Target grips I get no frame contact; different angles, especially the hump behind the hammer that positions the web of the hand are responsible. It's something to watch...that 'touch' will give a lateral slap to the shot if your not careful.

One of the posters here, or elsewhere, suggested a mild grip if I read him correctly, and I've never had success with that....my thought is that it's more difficult to achieve a consistent "mild" grip than one where you hold on with a firm, strong hand shake...the type that's just short of trying to impress your buddy. I use the strongest 'strong' hand grip that I can get without inducing muscle tremor... In fact in my younger days, I carried a small rubber ball around in a pocket, squeezing it whenever I thought of it to strengthen my hand. The suggestion came from Col. Charles Askins in one of his books from the '30's on Pistol Shooting. His comments came in a piece on shooting the .45 Auto but I found it applicable to other side arm efforts. My wife called me "Capt Queeg" of Caine Mutiny fame for the practice!

My last comment concerns the 'pinkie under' style. I use it due to hand size and it helps in stopping 2nd knuckle bashing by the trigger guard in recoil as well as maintaining consistent grip while cocking one handed. I find that keeping the pinkie under allows me to maintain the same grip for the most part, but that with a full hand grip, I slide around while cocking.

I've rambled on enuf now. Good discussion here. Thanks to one and all

Rodfac

 

[Eli Chaps]

Indeed a good discussion.

Rodfac, the Keith pictures were honestly just a couple quick ones I grabbed off the web. I just wanted to lend a visual to how "back then" Mr. Keith (and others of course) were refining and pioneering handgunning. The pic of his grip I really just chose at random and didn't mean to imply any relation. Truth is, I don't know exactly how he gripped his revolvers.

As to the tight vs mild grip, if you're a shooter who has learned and developed a means of shooting with a tight grip that is successful (as your target clearly displays) then I am surely not one to argue it. the idea is the tighter you grip the more the gun will pull toward the backside of the hand.

The bulk of the strong tendons, ligaments, and muscles that create a tight grip run along the back of the hand and between the thumb and forefinger. As these tighten, there is a tendency for the gripped object to move in that direction. I don't put a ton of emphasis on this, I do think it can be a factor for sure, but I think it is much lower down the ladder than many of the other factors that influence accuracy.

I want to say here that I am by no means an expert or champion dead-eye. I've had a lot of training, a good bit of practice, and a smidge of success. I'm just passing on what I've been taught, learned, and believe.

Everyone's mileage may vary and I'm always open to learning. And my way is SURELY not the only way.

Thanks for the good discussion I hope it's helped some folks.

 

[Rodfac]

Eli...It's sure good food for thought...most of us, I'd venture to say, at least the ones who've been at the game for 20+ yrs or so, don't even think how we do it anymore. Good to evaluate one's self from time to time.

Recently, I've been approached by a gaggle of former co-workers (I'm retired now) about shooting, defense carry, etc. in general. I must say that the current President has down wonders for the sale of handguns! Some of these folks haven't ever shot before and I've spent some time myself re-thinking just why I have a particular stance, grip, etc. Your comments have really struck a cord with me, and offered some possibilities that I'd not considered in any depth, before.

I'm no dead eye either..but do like to send 'em down range. Several of my #2 son's friends are with Ky St. Police and the Dept of Corrections here. Their input is always interesting on practicality of carry positions, caliber selection, and usefulness of various hand guns for the average homeowner...not to mention the legal issues. I've spent the bulk of my time, shooting from 25 yds...for the LE guys...that's nearly a rifle distance it would seem. As a practical matter, they point out that a very high percentage of LE gunfights occur at extremely short range and double taps are the rule! They spend the bulk of their practice time, as a result, from the 1,3, and 7 yd lines. (But it is fun to bet on shots at 100 yds with them shooting at old propane bottles, (empty of course).

To a man, they like the .40 S&W, call it a good compromise between a big bullet and multiple shot controlability, and find that the current offerings are a might on the large size, grip wise for female officers. It's good to have them out for an informal shoot...compare notes as it were, and imbibe in an adult beverage when the day's shooting is done. I've kept one of my Dillon's set up in .40 S&W for several years to keep them in practice ammo. But I digress.....

Your comments are well taken, well founded and obviously work for you as well. Many thanks from all of us for taking the times. I've enjoyed the discussion immensely.

Regards, Rodfac