Garand vs. Carbine, a WW II story

[Bob Wright]

This was told to me by an acquaintance at the gun shop a number of years ago. He was an old WW II veteran who fought up the peninsula of Italy.

They were in, or near, a small village in Italy, winter time, and very cold. He and his platoon leader were near the outskirts of town when they were confronted by an Italian soldier, clad in a heavy winter overcoat. They spotted each other at the same time, and the lieutenant fired two shots from his carbine. The Italian fred one shot, killing the lieutenant, and was working the bolt of his rifle when my friend fired one round from his M-1 rifle, killing the Italian soldier. The soldier fell back and died with his right hand raised in the air. The next morning as they moved past the frozen body of the Italian, he noticed someone had strung commo wire through his upraised hand.

No real point here, other than the M-1 carbine round did not penetrate the heavy woolen overcoat and other clothing of the soldier.

Bob Wright

 

[arfmel]

I have read a similar story that was said to have taken place in Korea.

 

[Mus408]

Have heard those stories too but... My 8 inch plates are almost swinging completely around from 35 yds I believe it was,and swing much more than a .45 Colt round which had old stories of going through a horse!
Think I will do a "cold weather" penetration test next week using my M-1 Carbine.
Stay tuned for video!!

Hitting the plates with my Carbine....https://youtu.be/4hya3VVvsUU

 

[Mus408]

Here...check this out! https://youtu.be/KPg30GURudY

I'm still going to do my own test.

 

[arfmel]

Have heard those stories too but... My 8 inch plates are almost swinging completely around from 35 yds I believe it was,and swing much more than a .45 Colt round which had old stories of going through a horse!
Think I will do a "cold weather" penetration test next week using my M-1 Carbine.
Stay tuned for video!!

Hitting the plates with my Carbine....https://youtu.be/4hya3VVvsUU

I'm looking forward to seeing the results as I have long doubted the accuracy of those old reports, based on what limited experience I have with .30 carbine ball ammo.

 

[daveg.inkc]

I have read a similar story that was said to have taken place in Korea.

. Yes that is in the book, "Last Stand of Fox Company". Bob Drury. Tom Clavin. M1 .30 would not penetrate the heavy, woolen coats of Chinese. This is Nov and Dec 1950. -30, -40 below 0. Tells also of the actions freezing shut.

 

[wizofwas]

I've heard this story too in Korea. And it had nothing to do with frozen clothing. It was the amount of clothing the N. Koreans were wearing and more importantly the type of clothing. I was told that the N. Koreans had easy access to a lot of silk for winter wear and after putting on enough layers of silk, it was like wearing a bullet proof vest.

 

[Mus408]

But what was the distance they were shot from?

 

[pisgah]

My Dad's one combat experience with the M1 Carbine came on a winter night in Germany in 1945 when he was detailed to lead a 3-man night patrol. He was dog tired, and when another soldier offered to trade him his carbine for Dad's Garand during the patrol, he was happy to get the light, handy weapon. They were ambushed by a German patrol and pinned down in a shallow ditch. Dad returned fire, one shot -- and the carbine jammed solid. The case had stuck in the chamber and came out only after, lying flat on his back, he kicked the bolt open with his heel. He then went through the entire firefight -- brief, thankfully -- firing one shot, kicking the bolt back, firing one shot, kicking the bolt back...

Needless to say, any potential affection he might have developed for the carbine vanished quickly, and permanently. In four months of nearly constant combat before receiving his million-dollar wound, his Garand never once failed to fire and cycle with every pull of the trigger.

A friend's dad, a lieutenant in Korea, also told of his carbine's failure to stop Chinese troops. He ditched it and picked up a Garand at his first opportunity.

 

[daveg.inkc]

The 1964 Speer #6 manual gives US Army load of 12.4 Hercules Carbine Powder behind a 110 FMJ. 1975 f/s. No doubt it is loaded hotter today.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Ah, war stories . . .

:wink:

 

[Pat-inCO]

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-36-frozen-clothing-and-the-box-o-truth/

Just a point of reference.

 

[Fox Mike]

Many years ago a buddy of mine and I shot at a cinder block (not concrete) wall with a M-1 carbine just to see how much penetration the bullet would have. I 'plucked' the two bullets out with my fingers. Didn't even crack the block.

 

[blackhawknj]

I have often wondered how many of these "M-1 Carbine/Failure to Stop" stories involve a groggy, exhausted, bleary eyed and sleep deprived GI or Marine fighting Chinese hordes at 0200 in Zero Degree temperatures-and the wind howling.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Ah, war stories . . .

:wink:

. . . and gun shop tales.

Hey, that combination would make a real good book title. I'm claiming it.

:wink:

 

[Bob Wright]

O.K. I admit I was taken in. He told the story in all sincerity, though.

Bob Wright

 

[Enigma]

I kinda think this particular war story belongs in the same category as the one about EVERYBODY knew someone who was killed when a kraut/jap waited for the 'PING' of his M1 ejecting the empty clip, then rushed his position and killed him. Or the alternate version, where the savvy soldier fired a few rounds, then tossed an empty clip on the ground to make a 'PING' and shot the kraut/jap when he tried to rush his position.

The only difference between war stories and fairy tales is that fairy tales begin with 'once upon a time,' and war stories begin with either 'now this ain't no lie,' or alternately 'there I was.'

 

[wwb]

A lot of embellishment on the war stories.... probably gets better with each telling. I don't buy the Carbine round "bouncing off" a heavily clothed soldier, but I can easily believe that the lethality of the shot was GREATLY reduced; to the extent that the enemy was able to keep coming and return fire. Another consideration is that the .30 carbine was a round nose bullet, not a spire point.

 

[daveg.inkc]

A lot of embellishment on the war stories.... probably gets better with each telling. I don't buy the Carbine round "bouncing off" a heavily clothed soldier, but I can easily believe that the lethality of the shot was GREATLY reduced; to the extent that the enemy was able to keep coming and return fire. Another consideration is that the .30 carbine was a round nose bullet, not a spire point.

Plus lower velocity. Read this book on Fox Company. I always thought the M1 Carbine was anemic.

 

[toysoldier]

A soft ballistic vest, containing 10 layers of cotton material, was developed in Korea in the 1860's. These were used in battle during the U.S. expedition to Korea in 1871.

The winter uniform worn by Chinese troops was made of multiple layers of cotton fabric, which probably reduced the lethality of the round-nosed M1 carbine bullet. The multiple layers deform and absorb energy. Freezing would reduce effectiveness. I also wonder about the effect of below-zero temperature on the velocity of carbine ammunition.

The effect of severe cold on the functioning of any repeating rifle is NOT just a "war story." Military exercises and actual combat in sub-freezing weather clearly demonstrated the problems with standard lubricants. Semi- and full-auto weapons are particularly susceptible to malfunction from lubricants turning to gum in such temperatures.