wheezengeezer
Bearcat
The ideal dia is one that barely squeaks thru the cylinder.M'BOGO said:
Frusterated Flat Top 44 Special Reload Question
- Thread starter scramjet
- Start date
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Paul B
Hunter
M'BOGO said:
I agree. I use .431 in all my .44 caliber handguns and it woeks just fine for me. The less you size the bullet the less there is the chance chance of damaging it.
Paul B.
wheezengeezer
Bearcat
As far as leading goes,the bullet needs to fill the groves.Whether it starts out big enough or bumps up.Paul B said:
Funny as it is I figured buying new a 44 special "flat top" and 44 mag Bisley Hunter I wanted to shoot them with factory loaded amunition to see where and how they shoot. Looking over the lack of selection not to mention the price I decided to cast and reload for both right from the start.
Casting 240g .439dia and 250g .430dia lee bullets sized to .429dia/lubed and reloaded as suggested I went against my original thoughts and slugged barrels. The 44 special slugged at .429 dia and the 44 mag Bisley slugged at .430dia, no suprise. As backwards as this process has been I'm going to shoot them see where they end up at from there. Next casting i'm not going to size but to simply lube traditonal beez wax/or Allox. Should be interesting to see results once it stops dumping snow here!
Casting 240g .439dia and 250g .430dia lee bullets sized to .429dia/lubed and reloaded as suggested I went against my original thoughts and slugged barrels. The 44 special slugged at .429 dia and the 44 mag Bisley slugged at .430dia, no suprise. As backwards as this process has been I'm going to shoot them see where they end up at from there. Next casting i'm not going to size but to simply lube traditonal beez wax/or Allox. Should be interesting to see results once it stops dumping snow here!
Paul B
Hunter
"Casting 240g .439dia and 250g .430dia lee bullets sized to .429dia/lubed and reloaded as suggested I went against my original thoughts and slugged barrels. The 44 special slugged at .429 dia and the 44 mag Bisley slugged at .430dia, no suprise. As backwards as this process has been I'm going to shoot them see where they end up at from there."
Still a bit backwards. Did you slug the cylinder throats? That can be mor eimportant than the bore/grove diameter readings. For example, if you gun with the .430" groove diameter has cylinder throats of .429. that gun will lead for forever and a day. It may or may not lead in the gun with the .429" groove diameter. I'm hoping your cylinder throats for both gunswill measure out to .430" or better yet .431" as bullet sized .431" will work just fine in both guns and properly sized bulets will not lead.
Paul B.
Still a bit backwards. Did you slug the cylinder throats? That can be mor eimportant than the bore/grove diameter readings. For example, if you gun with the .430" groove diameter has cylinder throats of .429. that gun will lead for forever and a day. It may or may not lead in the gun with the .429" groove diameter. I'm hoping your cylinder throats for both gunswill measure out to .430" or better yet .431" as bullet sized .431" will work just fine in both guns and properly sized bulets will not lead.
Paul B.
Hi Paul:
Sorry to mention the first thing I measured was cylinder throats way before casting/loading. I am fortunate enough to have available at work a model shop where we have large pin gauges to use.
Those guys helped me out and really get into this stuff they measured at:
Ruger 44spcl "flat top" cylinders 1 out of 5 measured .430 dia
while one measured a tight .4305 (no big deal).
Ruger 44mag Bisley Hunter cylinders measured .430 all day long.
I was just more so concerned about bore dia since I've gone through what has been done so far.
If the damn snow ever stops we can see where these loads work best!
Thanks,
Tom
Sorry to mention the first thing I measured was cylinder throats way before casting/loading. I am fortunate enough to have available at work a model shop where we have large pin gauges to use.
Those guys helped me out and really get into this stuff they measured at:
Ruger 44spcl "flat top" cylinders 1 out of 5 measured .430 dia
while one measured a tight .4305 (no big deal).
Ruger 44mag Bisley Hunter cylinders measured .430 all day long.
I was just more so concerned about bore dia since I've gone through what has been done so far.
If the damn snow ever stops we can see where these loads work best!
Thanks,
Tom
Paul B
Hunter
I guesswe can discount the .4305" throat (maybe) but .429" bullets in .430" throats can very easily allow gas to escape past the bullets causing gas cutting anf therefore leading. Most of the lead will probably be deposited at or near the rear of the barrel. Whether it will be serious enough to affect accuracy only shooting will tell. If the bullets are soft enough to slug up it might not be too bad but if they're fairly hard to really really hard, I do beleive you will get leading. That's the time to break out the tight stiff brush and the Chore Boy scouring pads. Gas checked bullet might not lead as badly with the .429" bullets but I do beieve they too will create some leading. I'll be glad to hear how it all works out.
Paul B.
Paul B.
Yes, I also figured the .4305 measurement can be over looked it was tight yet was slightly larger than the other five. The lead alloy I casted with was tested at work where I have a metalurgist lab available.
I have a molecular composition break down (pretty cool info) although brinell hardness was not available. I was told the machine would not read a hardness measurement the lead was to soft we typically test cast aluminum cylinders, sumps, pistons, cylinder heads, etc. for quality production, foreign stress raisers, and new product development reasons.
I have Saturday open, and was thinking of casting more 240gr .430dia 44s. Forget sizing, gas check half and leave half as casted and reload again. I'd think that would be a better load development program than what I have on the table.
I have a molecular composition break down (pretty cool info) although brinell hardness was not available. I was told the machine would not read a hardness measurement the lead was to soft we typically test cast aluminum cylinders, sumps, pistons, cylinder heads, etc. for quality production, foreign stress raisers, and new product development reasons.
I have Saturday open, and was thinking of casting more 240gr .430dia 44s. Forget sizing, gas check half and leave half as casted and reload again. I'd think that would be a better load development program than what I have on the table.
Not to get too far ahead of myself. I was thinking bore diameter is more so crucial to having a .001" larger diameter bullet close to matching the throat diameter.
Example being the 44 we are discussing:
A bore diameter of .429 with a throat diameter of .430 using a sized or non-sized cast .430 diameter bullet should work out great, even if the throat diameter is lets say .431,.432 diameter. Is this correct, just trying to get cast bullet standards streight.
Thanks,
Tom
Example being the 44 we are discussing:
A bore diameter of .429 with a throat diameter of .430 using a sized or non-sized cast .430 diameter bullet should work out great, even if the throat diameter is lets say .431,.432 diameter. Is this correct, just trying to get cast bullet standards streight.
Thanks,
Tom
Paul B
Hunter
"A bore diameter of .429 with a throat diameter of .430 using a sized or non-sized cast .430 diameter bullet should work out great, even if the throat diameter is lets say .431,.432 diameter. Is this correct, just trying to get cast bullet standards streight."
"A bore diameter of .429 with a throat diameter of .430 using a sized or non-sized cast .430 diameter bullet should work out great,"
This part is OK.
"even if the throat diameter is lets say .431,.432 diameter. Is this correct, just trying to get cast bullet standards streight."
This is where you go wrong again. It would be the same situation as if you were shooting .429" bullets in .430" throats. Gas blow by would cause serious leading.
I had one .44 magnum that had a .429" bore and .428" throats. :shock: Gun leaded every time I shot is nd accuracy sucked big time. I had a gunsmith open up the throats to .430", sized my bllets to .431" and it's sbeen a good shooter ever since and does not lead the barrel. 8)
Paul B.
"A bore diameter of .429 with a throat diameter of .430 using a sized or non-sized cast .430 diameter bullet should work out great,"
This part is OK.
"even if the throat diameter is lets say .431,.432 diameter. Is this correct, just trying to get cast bullet standards streight."
This is where you go wrong again. It would be the same situation as if you were shooting .429" bullets in .430" throats. Gas blow by would cause serious leading.
I had one .44 magnum that had a .429" bore and .428" throats. :shock: Gun leaded every time I shot is nd accuracy sucked big time. I had a gunsmith open up the throats to .430", sized my bllets to .431" and it's sbeen a good shooter ever since and does not lead the barrel. 8)
Paul B.
Bucks Owin
Hunter
wheezengeezer said:
Needs to fill the throats as close as possible. Shoot a .429" lead bullet in a .432" throat and..... :x
"I had one .44 magnum that had a .429" bore and .428" throats. Gun leaded every time I shot is nd accuracy sucked big time. I had a gunsmith open up the throats to .430", sized my bllets to .431" and it's been a good shooter ever since and does not lead the barrel".
Paul:
Another words throats need to be if not same diameter (.030 dia throat to .030" dia cast bullet) but better yet .001" smaller (.030dia throat to .031dia cast bullet)than the cast bullet even if the cast bullet ends up to be .002" larger than the bore dia (.429") preventing gas blow by in both the throat and bore.
Hell, if this is the case I'd be better off as mentioned earlier to re-melt the .429 sized dia castings and re-cast to .030 dia not sizing at all but lube and load to match the .030 dia throats then being .001" larger dia than the .429 dia bore.Looks like a busy weekend ahead.
Paul:
Another words throats need to be if not same diameter (.030 dia throat to .030" dia cast bullet) but better yet .001" smaller (.030dia throat to .031dia cast bullet)than the cast bullet even if the cast bullet ends up to be .002" larger than the bore dia (.429") preventing gas blow by in both the throat and bore.
Hell, if this is the case I'd be better off as mentioned earlier to re-melt the .429 sized dia castings and re-cast to .030 dia not sizing at all but lube and load to match the .030 dia throats then being .001" larger dia than the .429 dia bore.Looks like a busy weekend ahead.
Paul B
Hunter
"Hell, if this is the case I'd be better off as mentioned earlier to re-melt the .429 sized dia castings and re-cast to .030 dia not sizing at all but lube and load to match the .030 dia throats then being .001" larger dia than the .429 dia bore.Looks like a busy weekend ahead."
Absolutely! If you add a bit of tin to the mix, say about a three foot piece of 95/5 Percent lead free solder, you could get bullets tha cast out to .4305" to .431" which would be even better yet. 8) You can find that lead free sold probably at any hardware store and a roll will last a long time. There are apparently two type, one withthe 5 percent being silver and the other ttpe having copper as the 5 percent. I've always used the one with silver but I imagine the other will work just as well. That solder is used for copper water pipes. If nothing else, that solder will make it easier for the lead to properly fill out the mold.
Paul B.
Absolutely! If you add a bit of tin to the mix, say about a three foot piece of 95/5 Percent lead free solder, you could get bullets tha cast out to .4305" to .431" which would be even better yet. 8) You can find that lead free sold probably at any hardware store and a roll will last a long time. There are apparently two type, one withthe 5 percent being silver and the other ttpe having copper as the 5 percent. I've always used the one with silver but I imagine the other will work just as well. That solder is used for copper water pipes. If nothing else, that solder will make it easier for the lead to properly fill out the mold.
Paul B.
I have added solder/tin to the mix 5 percent being silver to the pot forming the cast 429" boolits that were used for this last loading adventure. I will simply disassemble, melt all 429" for the flat top 44 spcl, 44 mag bisley, and the 451" for the colt vequero 45cal, and add some solder tin to the mix again. Reload/lube to "as cast .430 for both 44s and 452 dia for 45 cal vequero". I have my work cut out for me this weekend!
Most of all thanks Paul for your're patients and generousity! looks like I have an understanding of cast bullet loadings. Do you want shooting results.I have a bunch of clean-up and correction work no complaints! I'd hate to have lead coated a couple new revolvers. It might be possible to try out next weekend.
Thanks Again!
Tom
Most of all thanks Paul for your're patients and generousity! looks like I have an understanding of cast bullet loadings. Do you want shooting results.I have a bunch of clean-up and correction work no complaints! I'd hate to have lead coated a couple new revolvers. It might be possible to try out next weekend.
Thanks Again!
Tom
Paul B
Hunter
When working with and shooting cast bullets, one learns patience. :lol: I won't even try to tellall the things I learned and unlearned about doing the cast bullet thing since 1954. Some of the thing would make you sit down and cry. Like when I bought 100 pound of what was supposed to be a1 in 10 mix of lead and ting that was so zinc contaminated that I have ingots still sitting around that I'd love to salvage. Or the time I gave a guy a big block of what I thought was lan allow that turned out to be a 20 pound block of tin. :shock: Believe me, I've had more than my share of screw ups along the lines of bullet casting. What might help your alloy out to ake it a bit "fatter" bullet is if you have some small size magnum bird shot you can add to the mix. anything about size seven or smaller will has a higher concentration of antimony and arsenic. The arsenic will let bullets age harden to a slightly harder BHN level and if you water drop them, they'll be harder than a tax collector's heart. I usuallyonly water drop bullets I plan to use in rifles when I'm shooting longer distances. I have a .308 Win. that on a reasonably calm day will do 1.5 MOA at 200 yards and 2.5 MOA at 300 yards. Of course, that's from the bench but it's fun trying to get tight groups. I usually don't do that good unless there's very little or no wind which means shooting very early in the morning before the inversion breaks and the wind starts up. You'd need a weather man with a pencil and paper to explain that one. :lol: That's what I did for a living. It made it easy to figure out the best times to try for good long range groups.
Paul B.
Paul B.
Patients is something I'm learning in all aspects. Today's standards go against having patients "do more faster and in volume". Anyway, I've been reloading shotgun for a bunch of years and have a lot of 7 1/2 size chilled shot available. You suggest adding small size shot to the melting pot, how much per ten lb pot? I'm using a Lee electric bottom drop 10lb casting furnace how much should be added to that. Also, water dropping hardens that much. Huh, I was wondering where that application comes into hand.Really great info! I'm off to disassembleing rounds, cleaning lubed cast bullets, re-melting, casting w/some chilled shot, and hopefully reloading yet today.
Paul B
Hunter
My normal alloy is ten pounds of Wheel weights, one pound of linotype, one-third cup of the chilled shot and a three foot piece of the 95/5 percent lead free solder. Bullets will age hardenr to about 12 to 14 on the BHN scale depending on hoe much antimony there is in the wheel weights based on my LBT hardnes tester. I still have about 25 pouds of wheel weights I bought back in 1973. Bullets from them will age harden in about two week to 12 on the scale without me adding anyting to the mix. They made great bullets as is. Current wheel weights in comparison age harden to 8 to 10 on the BHN scale,kind of mushy when compared to the older weights. Falls in with the American way, make it as cheaply as you can and charge as much as you can get away with. 
:x
My alloy when baked in an oven at 450 degrees for one hour and then quickly dropped into a bucket of cold water will be about 28 on the scale at dropping and will age harden in two to three weeks to 32 on the scale and that my friend is one very hard bullet. They do, IMHO take some special handling though which entails more work. First, before oven treating them, they must be sized but not lubed. So, if you're sizing to .431" after hardening you must lube with a .432" die. If you size after hardening, then you literally wipe out the hardnes and they will shortly go back to their pre-hardened state. I don't bother doing it with handgun rounds or most rifle loadings but when I'm doing serious target work then I think it might make groups a bit better. You have to find out exactly what the rifle likes. Hell! I've been doin the cast bullet thing since 1954 and there are times when I still feel like a blind man in a coal mine at midnight.
Paul B.
:x My alloy when baked in an oven at 450 degrees for one hour and then quickly dropped into a bucket of cold water will be about 28 on the scale at dropping and will age harden in two to three weeks to 32 on the scale and that my friend is one very hard bullet. They do, IMHO take some special handling though which entails more work. First, before oven treating them, they must be sized but not lubed. So, if you're sizing to .431" after hardening you must lube with a .432" die. If you size after hardening, then you literally wipe out the hardnes and they will shortly go back to their pre-hardened state. I don't bother doing it with handgun rounds or most rifle loadings but when I'm doing serious target work then I think it might make groups a bit better. You have to find out exactly what the rifle likes. Hell! I've been doin the cast bullet thing since 1954 and there are times when I still feel like a blind man in a coal mine at midnight.
Paul B.
Thanks for the info Paul. I was able to clean all lubed and sized .429" 44cal and .451"45cal (300) bootlits. I then remelted, and recast 100-240gr .430", 100-250gr .430", and 50-200gr .452" boolits. Got busy with daily stuff today, I'll be looking at disassemly and then reloading the loaded cast 44 cal and 45 cal stuff this week (kind of burned out).
Thanks,
Tom
Thanks,
Tom
Finally got back to the re-casted .430" 44cal boolits. Wanted to try a new method of sizing/lubing seeing how the slowest element of this process is my RCBS lube sizer so I ordered and received the Lee push through Alox sizer set-up. I was impressed how it was able to clean-up the .430" keeping them at .430" and in a short matter of time. Next was the re-cast .452" 45cal same held true with those also. I have them drying after tumble lubing again and am wondering if the Alox coating will be good enough, bullets being a standard grease groove design. Or as mentioned earlier mix Johnson past wax/Alox/Mineral Spirits for the final lube.
