Firing Pin problem with Vaquero ?

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.38 Super

Bearcat
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
5
Greetings from Florida, long time reader, first time writing a post here, I have a general question about Vaquero .378/.38spl: friend of mine had this happened with his gun:

vaquero00.jpg


He contacted Ruger, they did send a new gun with the same problem without explaining why this is happening. The rep in BG also didn’t know anything about the problem. As far as I know he was shooting it, no problem, but the punch off center is of some concern for him…
To clarify: he is in Bulgaria, Europe. I will greatly appreciate any information about what is visible on the picture, I am not very familiar with this Ruger revolver, I personally have the new SR9 and I love to shoot it… 8)
TIA, best regards.
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
22,090
Location
Lake Lure NC USA
Welcome to the Forum!
It's POSSIBLE that he's trying something like fanning or whatever causing the cylinder to get a little out of time. Especially if he's had 2 guns doing the same thing.
Find out how he's shooting,, and you may discover his problems.
I recall somewhere on this board a while back someone else had the same problem,, but I don't recall the "fix."
 

.38 Super

Bearcat
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
5
contender":mx7qmcpq said:
Welcome to the Forum!
It's POSSIBLE that he's trying something like fanning or whatever causing the cylinder to get a little out of time. Especially if he's had 2 guns doing the same thing.
Find out how he's shooting,, and you may discover his problems.
I recall somewhere on this board a while back someone else had the same problem,, but I don't recall the "fix."

10x contender, I believe he is fanning, but this is happening, according to him, when he just shoots the gun, it doesn't mater the technique... He took the replacement gun to another guy with Vaquero and when compared, the new one makes completely different clicking noise nothing close to the other Vaquero that the second shooter was using for years, happily competing...What I don't understand is how the drum will not stay locked in place, regardless of the technique used for shooting (competing)...
 

Sonnytoo

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Aug 4, 2007
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florida
contender":x451g95d said:
Welcome to the Forum!
It's POSSIBLE that he's trying something like fanning or whatever causing the cylinder to get a little out of time. Especially if he's had 2 guns doing the same thing.

Hey Contender, you're a pretty smart guy. Hadn't thought of that myself.
Sonnytoo
 

pvtschultz

Blackhawk
Joined
Oct 11, 2005
Messages
553
Location
West Allis, WI, USA
I'd have him slow way down, delibrately pull the hammer all the way to the rear, aim, and sqeeze off a round. Repeat five times and check the primers. Having a primer strike that far off should be hell on the projectile as it tries to fit into the forcing cone if you ask me.
 

.38 Super

Bearcat
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
5
pvtschultz":2seqw35w said:
I'd have him slow way down, delibrately pull the hammer all the way to the rear, aim, and sqeeze off a round. Repeat five times and check the primers. Having a primer strike that far off should be hell on the projectile as it tries to fit into the forcing cone if you ask me.

I've been told that they were shooting the revolver with some Yugo ammo - PPU. They did shoot and the gun did not go off like every other round, so they were throwing the "bad" ammo in the barrel with all the rest of spent shells, thinking that is just that - bad ammo... Than some guy bother to examine the primer just to discover that the hit is off-center...They contacted Ruger, Ruger exchanged the gun, they took it to the range and found out the same problem...I am really curious about some input on the cause of primer being hit so much off center - is it the locking of the cylinder or something else...? As I said - another shooter there, with the same gun was putting a thousands of rounds through it and dry firing it without a problem, when they compared the two guns, the one with the problem had totally different feeling of the trigger pull. As I said before, those friends of mine are in Bulgaria...the rep who sold the gun obviously doesn't know how to do his job, it's not Ruger ... I personally have nothing but perfect experience with their cust. support.
 

Pinecone

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Maine
.38 Super, If you want to continue damaging Ruger SA's or any make of SA for that matter, then by all means "continue" to fan those guns! I can't think of anything other than a humongus "overloaded" cartridge that will destroy a good quality Ruger any quicker! Overtravel of the hammer causes the cylinder to still want to move after the the cylinder latch has locked into the cylinder notch, thereby "forcing" the pawl to push and peen the side of the notch enlarging it. To test this, cock the hammer normally and then "hold" on to the cylinder with one hand while bringing the hammer back as far as it will go. You "will" feel the cylinder try to move! This causes the peening. That is only the start of your troubles. Damage is also done to the cylinder "ratchets" as well as the "pawl", hammer notches and trigger "sear" tip! You guys are watching way "too many" old American westerns. Companies that rent guns to the movie industry have "thousands" of prop guns and usually a gunsmith or two to repair, modify, whatever the industry wants along with a pretty "fat" wallet. The end result is exactly what you are experiencing. An offset cylinder giving you offset firing pin hits! If you/your friends want to continue to "fan" and waist their money then they can feel free to do so!................................Dick :wink:
 

JWhitmore44

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Oct 23, 2008
Messages
987
Location
NW Kansas
Are they pulling the hammer back all the way? Wonder if they are slip firing the gun. Keep the finger off the trigger until the hammer is all the way back and latched. then pull the trigger back.

If they want to fan their guns they need to send them to Bob Munden to have the worked over first :)
 

.38 Super

Bearcat
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
5
Gents, thank you for your input so far. As I said, I'm not familiar with Ruger revolvers, I owned one 22lr Ruger revolver long time ago, I still regret that I sold it, it was beautiful thing with 8 rounds cylinder, but so far this was my experience with their revolvers...

I'll relay the input to my friend over there, hope it'll help. The reason I was kind of looking for answer here was that they are drawing wrong conclusions about the company and customer service only from the experience with this particular gun... especially when they compared it to a gun that belonged to a gunsmith there ... 8)

Can someone explain to me what would be the solution for the described problem in case the guy over there wants to continue to do CAS ... besides not doing it ... I tend to agree with Hokie 73 (besides the joke) - this is a Cowboy Action gun, it shouldn't hurt it being used for fanning and so on...

When Pinecone mentioned "overloaded" cartridge - is it in some regard of the actual ammo (PPU) that they were shooting ?
I guess I can ask otherwise: Are they any "special" requirements for CAS ammo ?

TIA, best regards, .38sup.
 

JWhitmore44

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NW Kansas
Cowboy Action Shooting does not include fanning. I don't know any factory gun that comes set up for fanning. Sounds like your friends are playing fast draw not cowboy action shooting. A gun needs some modifications done to it for fast draw. One of the guys that does this customization is Bob Munden http://www.bobmunden.com/custom.htm

Most folks just use a lighter load for CAS to help reduce recoil so they can get back on target quicker. Nothing else is special about CAS ammo. Fast draw ammo is different as it usually uses wax bullets with just the primer and no powder. The primer holes get drilled out our opened up. CAS and Fast Draw are two different things.
 

JimMarch1

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Feb 19, 2007
Messages
525
Location
Tucson, AZ, USA
Fanning is BANNED in SASS events. It's dangerous, unsafe and tears the gun apart.

If you absolutely want to fan regardless, the gun has to be specially beefed up to cope. Ripping out the transfer bar safety and converting it to a "no safety at all" gun (five up carry) is common, and an adjustable over-travel stop is a must. This usually means a hole in the grip frame from underneath is tapped and a set-screw installed with a lock-nut to block the end of the hammer strut from over-travel. An easier-to-install variant is an over-travel stop that replaces the mainspring keeper, such as:

http://cas-town.com/WestFargoGunsmith/parts.html

This however isn't as "rigid" as an over-travel stop using the whole grip frame as a support. I suspect that if you look at one of, say, Bob Munden's guns, you'll find the latter type.
 

.38 Super

Bearcat
Joined
Feb 19, 2010
Messages
5
Oh, I see… Now, after the above two posts, I come to realize the role of the cylinder in fanning, along with the rest of the parts… Lighter is better, I guess the original Vaquero’s cylinder would be heavy and the quick spin will push it over the cylinder latch… Everything said about the mods, especially about the overtravel of the hammer strut makes sense to me now… 8)
Like everything else, it’s not just to grab the gun and start firing it the way you want… This was the info I was looking for…I still didn’t find out if they were having this problem when shooting the gun just normaly, my guess would be – no.

Well, the definitely know who B. Munden is… :wink: I’m not sure about the info for the fanning – it is new to me, but again – I never touched that subject before…

Thank you both for clearing it out for me, best regards !
 

Pinecone

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As JWhitmore44 mentioned, there are several ways to install a "hammer block" which addresses the hammer "overtravel" problem when fanning but it still does not "answer" the excessive wear on the other parts I mentioned above. As you have probably surmised, I don't "recommend" fanning at all!...............................Dick :wink:
 

BlackEagle

Blackhawk
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
882
Location
NC
...there are "ammo requirements". The loads are somewhat light. Here is the pertinent page of the rulebook:

SINGLE ACTION SHOOTING SOCIETY
Shooters Handbook
~12~
Copyright © Single Action Shooting Society, Inc 2010
Sixteenth Edition
AMMUNITION
The minimum standard for center-fire smokeless ammunition used in all SASS matches
State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship Competitions is not less
than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps. The maximum
velocity standard for revolvers is 1000 fps. The maximum velocity standard for rifles is 1400
fps. Pocket pistols, derringers, and long-range rifles are exempt from the power factor and
velocity requirements.
Power factors are simply calculated by multiplying the bullet weight times the velocity
and then the resulting number is divided by 1000. Some examples are as follows:
100 gr bullet traveling at 600 fps has a power factor of 60: (100x600)/1000=60.00
77 gr bullet traveling at 800 fps has a power factor of 61.6 (77x800)/1000=61.60
200 gr bullet traveling at 400 fps has a power factor of 80 (200x400)/1000=80.00
• Shooters may be held responsible for damage caused to a target or injury to personnel due to
“bounce back” because of inappropriate ammunition. This major safety violation is grounds
for “instant disqualification” and ejection from the match.
• Revolver and rifle ammunition may not be jacketed, semi-jacketed, plated, gas checked, or
copper washed. It must be all lead. Molydisulfide coated bullets or equivalent are
acceptable.
• Revolver and rifle ammunition must be of “single projectile” design. “Multiple projectile”
bullets are illegal.
• Ammunition with bullets recessed below the case mouth is disallowed.
• Throughout this manual, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowder substitute such
as Pyrodex, 777, APP, or comparable propellants intended for muzzle loading firearms.
Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited as blackpowder substitutes. Any
combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically
prohibited.
• Shotgun shot size must be number 4 lead birdshot or smaller for all events (no steel or
plated shot).
• Magnum and high velocity shotgun shell loads are not allowed.
• Shotgun shells shall not be sized down by the use of any die not manufactured for the
specific gauge.
• Shotgun Shell shall not be scored (ringed) as to cause the shot-shell case, wad and shot
column to be shot from the firearm as one projectile.
• Pump and lever action shotguns are allowed to load no more than two live rounds at a time
in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description. In team events, shotguns
may be loaded to their maximum magazine capacity.
• All centerfire or rimfire ammunition must be designed to package the bullet, gunpowder,
and primer into a single metallic case precisely made to fit the firing chamber of the firearm.
The primer must be of the type that uses only a small charge of impact sensitive chemical
that may be located at the center of the case head or at its rim. Electrically fired ammunition
is illegal.
 

AzRebel

Single-Sixer
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
216
Location
Next to the creek, under a pine
I still didn’t find out if they were having this problem when shooting the gun just normaly, my guess would be – no.

Once "fanning" has screwed up the gun, it won't matter how they shoot it any more. After that, it won't shoot right 'till it's fixed by a competent gunsmith.

Rugers are built like tanks, but even a tank won't run right once it's abused to the point of being damaged.

Your friend is abusing his SA revolvers, and it's sad that he had to damage two of them before he figured it out...if he's figured it out.

If he hasn't, then he'll keep damaging them until he stops abusing them.

Daryl
 
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