"Fake" "Forged" Ruger letters ? Is this real ???

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b1buddy

Single-Sixer
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May 25, 2008
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182
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Brownsboro, Texas
I am a bit late in getting to this but ----- At the April Tulsa show, I had two fellows checking out some of my brass frame Old Models. I have letters for them. However, they kept looking at their phones. Turned out, they have pictures of the lists in Dougan's book (as do I) and were checking there. I asked about my letters as being good enough. They said that they knew of people offering for sale on eBay and elsewhere for a "Ruger" letter to match whatever you wanted it to verify.

Are any of you able to confirm that this is true?

It really kind of Pixx'ed me off that there is such a thing happening, but I have not been able to confirm that it is. Actually, I just recently received 8 new letters for items in my collection FROM RUGER They have the gold embossed seal, signed in ink, etc.

If there are such people forging these letters, do any of you know of any legal recourse to stop it?
 

hittman

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Legal recourse would be up to Ruger unless or until YOU as a consumer are a victim.

No, I’ve not heard of it but if there’s a quick buck to be made, somebody will surely do it.

There’s been frauds and lawsuits on big ticket items like Corvettes and Hemi Mopars and others. But there can be hundreds of thousands of dollars involved there.

If you paid $150 more for a gun than its worth because of a fraudulent Ruger letter I doubt you’d pay to retain an attorney. File a police report, sure. Shell out $500 to a lawyer, don’t think so.
 

arcticruger

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LOA signed in ink? Was this an older policy?

None of the LOA’s that I’ve received from Ruger are signed, just the gold seal.
 

arcticruger

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I think all mine are signed. If not an original signature maybe it‘s a ”stamp” of the signature.
Interesting. The ones I have received are all since last fall. I think about six of them and none are signed. 😕
 
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I'd buy the gun , NOT the story, sounds like someone trying to beat you up with a con story that the letters are "fake" if YOU got them from RUger, just smile at them and tell them "No Thank you" and turn away....I see ALL kinds of smart butt guys who know "crappola" about Rugers, say some pretty STUPID as well as dishonest things at any given gun show, trying to get the price down, and BUST YOUR bubble......screw 'em:cool::rolleyes:;)

can any of it be "faked" yes of course, look at the boxes and paper work for sale on fleabay or gunn breaker, Colt especially, alll out of Sparta Tenn., as well as S&W papers and box labels, last show saw reprints of of ALL the early S&W Owners manuals for the various models, selling for $5 each.........wow,,,,,,,,caveat emptor baby :cool:
 

JStacy

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May 6, 2016
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south Texas
I am a shooter not a collector and the letter, unless the gun was new, unfired, in original box and with all original paperwork, would make any difference to me on pricing. I worked gun shows in a large SW Texas town for 6 years and many people came to us with "rare collectable guns" And we always told them we were resellers not collectors and we would off a price where we could resale and make a little profit, we usually worked to get 15% margin on reselling a gun. Some of the "rare" guns were fakes put together from parts and the seller paid too much for it. People were often unhappy with us but we always dealt in truth .
 

b1buddy

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May 25, 2008
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Location
Brownsboro, Texas
In my case, I had factory brass framed old model 357's with boxes and a couple of old model 45 convertibles. I wanted letters originally to verify that the factory actually shipped them in that configuration.
If it is "just a Ruger", I agree that there is no need for a factory letter. I will get one of these new letters and see if I can upload a copy. But, yep, my oldmanitus brain kicked in again, and there is no signature. Sorry I messed that part up. My memory was of a letter she included with one package of letters that she signed. Dang! Hell to be getting this old and not meaning to.
 

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contender

Ruger Guru
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Lake Lure NC USA
I have both signed & stamped letter from Ruger. Many from long ago,, (Thanks Kim) even had part of my name marked through. Kim would mark out "Mr. Pxxxxxx" and write in "Tyrone" AND sign it.
And even John Dougan will acknowledge that his book has mistakes.
But yes,,, several of us do use as much info as possible to study potential purchases. If you had Dougan's list,, you could use it to also assist your sales.

I'm of the mind these guys were trying to get a collectable for common pricing.
Smile & stick to YOUR pricing.

And no,, I've not heard of counterfeit letters,, but nothing is impossible.
 

Ruger44fan

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Joined
Jan 1, 2013
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358
Location
Maine
I am a bit late in getting to this but ----- At the April Tulsa show, I had two fellows checking out some of my brass frame Old Models. I have letters for them. However, they kept looking at their phones. Turned out, they have pictures of the lists in Dougan's book (as do I) and were checking there. I asked about my letters as being good enough. They said that they knew of people offering for sale on eBay and elsewhere for a "Ruger" letter to match whatever you wanted it to verify.

Are any of you able to confirm that this is true?

It really kind of Pixx'ed me off that there is such a thing happening, but I have not been able to confirm that it is. Actually, I just recently received 8 new letters for items in my collection FROM RUGER They have the gold embossed seal, signed in ink, etc.

If there are such people forging these letters, do any of you know of any legal recourse to stop it?
At the Tulsa show, I have been there once and saw all the "NAMES" that deal in Rugers. I have also seen that some of them ONLY get interested in buying if the price is really LOW. I know one of them is a CROOK. PM me and I can give a personal account and if that is the case, I can confirm that the person is a crook. Dougan was diligent, but his book is "off". In his section of Old Army brass frames, he shows one from Florida and states it is original but it isn't in his list at the back of the book. Also, his 45 Blackhawk brass frame list is reversed. The 4-5/8 list is for 7-1/2's and vice versa. I have some brass frames and not all of them letter, yet one was owned by Elmer Keith who wanted nothing but Super Blackhawk shaped grip frames on his revolvers. Let me know who said your items were off and I can shed more light. I watch Ebay all the time and have NEVER seen a letter offered for sale there nor have I seen a caution listed here about that. Hope we can get to the bottom of some of this. I assure you I will not relay ANY information that is not factual.
 
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moparclan

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Dec 9, 2013
Messages
112
Have a letter for a Ruger Standard made in 1954 dated Jan. 3, 1989 that is signed in ink (Stephen K. Vogel) and with a Sturm, Ruger & Company, INC. letterhead.
The more recent ones have just Ruger, date and a gold seal.
 

b1buddy

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Location
Brownsboro, Texas
I suppose I should add ---- They ended up buying one each. They confirmed mine were legit from Ruger. My point to this whole thread has been the concerned with the counterfeit Ruger letters. I would never have guessed anyone would ever consider a value added in counterfeiting a Ruger letter.
But then, having said that, I do have letters for a few of my Ruger 44 Carbines that confirm they are what they are, and that for sure would add value.
Plus, I have one old model 45, three-digit s/n with THREE cylinders!!! All the cylinders are numbered to the gun. But, despite her research on it, she cannot confirm that Ruger actually fit the extra cylinders. Naturally, I was disappointed in that one, but hey, I still have a really neat revolver!
And finally, I suppose just the disgust that some people would/will prostitute such a good thing as Ruger collecting!!!!!!!
 

chet15

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Dawson, Iowa
b1buddy
I have also heard of a .45 Colt with three cylinders. Believe the third cylinder was for .45 Rim, and certainly looked like a Ruger made cylinder. I don't remember the specifics on it back then, but was thinking there was no way to convert a .45 Colt or .45 ACP cylinder to .45 rim.
Remember that Ruger has done a lot of experimenting through the years... getting letters on some of that stuff is next to impossible.
Chet15
 
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.....I have never seen a Ruger letter specifically for "service work".....its been said years ago, folks sent in the early stainless 357 and had a stainless 9mm cylinder fitted....prove it..........same goes for barrel replacement to shorten or lengthen either way,,how many single actions we have seen ,old model with a new model barrel on it, and IF the factory does it, they would have the "warning" on them....go figure. and YES some in customer service still think or say or call the RSTs ...."Mark I's.....":rolleyes:
 

b1buddy

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It is a distinct change from my original post but - Hey - why not!!
The three cylinder OM 45 is a 3 digit s/n and has a 45 Colt, 45 ACP, and a 45 Win Mag cylinder. And, it shoots fine!!!
The grips are factory Ruger but the emblem has been changed out to a NRA emblem.
it came in a cheap Doscosil case with cutouts for everything. Everything includes the revolver, two extra cylinders and of all things a S&W cleaning tool set with a small bottle of Remington oil.
I did trace it back to two previous Houston Gun Collector members, but never could find the originator. My guess at this point in time is that someone got the cylinders chambered and fit and had the rest assembled for something like a Friends of NRA package. But, naturally, I cannot prove any of that part. It is just a guess at this point.
 
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.....ah if only they could talk.....yes one may never know as I cannot recall how many over the years we switched, added, rechambered to whatever the customer paid for, and on and on...can only remember when we rechambered a Dan Wesson back in 70s to .256 Win. and we got written up in American Handgunner,,,,,,,,,,as well as Hawkeyes that were NOT moving, selling well at the shop.....ah yes so long ago...:cool::(

someday our grandchildren will wonder what really was "factory"
 

any ruger

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Have old 3 screw 44 mag could not get the threaded insert for the ejector housing soldered in. Brought it to a Smith in Milaca Mn. He had no luck with it. Said he had a friend that worked for Ruger did I mind if he sent him the gun. He did paper work that he was sending the gun to his friend in care of Ruger. Three weeks later I got the gun back 4years and the housing hasn't fallen off. This could have happened many times. It's always who you know. Just because no letter does not mean it never happened. There are probably lots of ruger things we will never know. Sorry to ramble.
 
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chet15

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Jan 22, 2001
Messages
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Dawson, Iowa
At the Tulsa show, I have been there once and saw all the "NAMES" that deal in Rugers. I have also seen that some of them ONLY get interested in buying if the price is really LOW. I know one of them is a CROOK. PM me and I can give a personal account and if that is the case, I can confirm that the person is a crook. Dougan was diligent, but his book is "off". In his section of Old Army brass frames, he shows one from Florida and states it is original but it isn't in his list at the back of the book. Also, his 45 Blackhawk brass frame list is reversed. The 4-5/8 list is for 7-1/2's and vice versa. I have some brass frames and not all of them letter, yet one was owned by Elmer Keith who wanted nothing but Super Blackhawk shaped grip frames on his revolvers. Let me know who said your items were off and I can shed more light. I watch Ebay all the time and have NEVER seen a letter offered for sale there nor have I seen a caution listed here about that. Hope we can get to the bottom of some of this. I assure you I will not relay ANY information that is not factual.
There are a bunch of factory Brass Frame Old Army's that are missing from J.D.'s list. I'm not sure if he stopped at 1972 or not, but all the late factory BP7B are missing.
On the letters, I wonder if somebody misunderstood what was said at Tulsa, because I've never heard of somebody giving letters outside of the factory, besides when the RCA was doing them. And if somebody is doing that, it wouldn't take too long for our hobby to disown that person to Ruger collecting.
Chet15
 

chet15

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Joined
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Messages
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Dawson, Iowa
It is a distinct change from my original post but - Hey - why not!!
The three cylinder OM 45 is a 3 digit s/n and has a 45 Colt, 45 ACP, and a 45 Win Mag cylinder. And, it shoots fine!!!
The grips are factory Ruger but the emblem has been changed out to a NRA emblem.
it came in a cheap Doscosil case with cutouts for everything. Everything includes the revolver, two extra cylinders and of all things a S&W cleaning tool set with a small bottle of Remington oil.
I did trace it back to two previous Houston Gun Collector members, but never could find the originator. My guess at this point in time is that someone got the cylinders chambered and fit and had the rest assembled for something like a Friends of NRA package. But, naturally, I cannot prove any of that part. It is just a guess at this point.
The .45 Win. Mag. was introduced by Winchester in 1979. So somebody has added a cylinder to your gun.
Chet15
 
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