Conflicting data from Hogdon website ???

[RugerSP101]

I just started reloading a few months ago so forgive my ignorance if thats all this is, but this really seems to be a conflict here.
I was looking at Hogdons website, at their reloading data and this really struck me as having something seriously wrong.

Both are 125 GR. CAST LRNFP using Universal powder.

357 magnum
125 GR. CAST LRNFP Hodgdon Universal / .358" / 1.580" / 4.8gr 1046fps / 11,000 CUP ---- 6.8gr / 1401fps / 34,200 CUP

versus

38 Special
125 GR. CAST LRNFP Hodgdon Universal / .358" / 1.445" / 4.3gr / 872fps / 8,700 CUP----4.7gr / 1036fps / 16,800 CUP

Now, how can, using the same bullet, the 4.8 gr of unversal be 11000 cup on the 357 chart....but on the 38 special chart 4.7gr, .1 gr less, be 16,800 CUP ????

I realize that some powders are funny that way, but the 38 special data uses (4.3gr / 872fps / 8,700 CUP) as its starting load, so apparently 4.7 shouldnt be that far off the chart.

Are these charts just wrong or is this really that complex ?

 

[Snake45]

Prolly because the .38 case is shorter, meaning less powder space, meaning increased pressure.

 

[paul105]

You referenced Unique in your question, but the data listed is for Univeral -- Just wanted to make sure you know that those are different powders (and different manufactures).

The pressure difference can be related to many differnent things, following are a few:

Probably the biggest influence is case capacity. The .357 Magnum has a larger internal volume than that of the .38 special. All things being equal, and in most instances, this will result in less pressure for the .357 Mag vs. the .38 with the same load.

If you look further (print and cancel), there were two different test barrels used (a 7.7" and a 10" for the .38 and .357 respectively). Now barrel length in and of itself will not cause a pressure difference. However different barrels will have subtle dimentional differences that will result in differnt pressure reading (everthing else being equal).

Primers used in the two tests were also different.

Although, there is no way to know, It is possible that different lots of Universal were used in the two tests, which would result in differnt pressure.

It is also possible that the bullets used were not from the same lot.

It is good that you recognized pressure difference as it is always advisable to be alert for the possiblity of an error in load data. I always check all loads I plan to use against all other sources that I have availble to me.

If you haven't, and you are serious about reloading, you should invest in a couple of good, current reloading manuals. There is a ton of important and useful information contained therein.

FWIW,

Paul

 

[RugerSP101]

You referenced Unique in your question, but the data listed is for Univeral -- Just wanted to make sure you know that those are different powders (and different manufactures).

Yeah. that was my bad. Universal is what I meant. I use Unique exclusively at this point so I have it on the brain.

The pressure difference can be related to many differnent things, following are a few:

Probably the biggest influence is case capacity. The .357 Magnum has a larger internal volume than that of the .38 special. All things being equal, and in most instances, this will result in less pressure for the .357 Mag vs. the .38 with the same load.

If you look further (print and cancel), there were two different test barrels used (a 7.7" and a 10" for the .38 and .357 respectively). Now barrel length in and of itself will not cause a pressure difference. However different barrels will have subtle dimentional differences that will result in differnt pressure reading (everthing else being equal).

Primers used in the two tests were also different.

Although, there is no way to know, It is possible that different lots of Universal were used in the two tests, which would result in differnt pressure.

It is also possible that the bullets used were not from the same lot.

It is good that you recognized pressure difference as it is always advisable to be alert for the possiblity of an error in load data. I always check all loads I plan to use against all other sources that I have availble to me.

If you haven't, and you are serious about reloading, you should invest in a couple of good, current reloading manuals. There is a ton of important and useful information contained therein.

FWIW,

Paul

Thanks for the info

I pretty much stick with 4 grains of Unique with 158 gr cast LRN for range ammo, but I did buy some Hornady XTP bullets to make some rounds for self defense.
I know its not typically a good idea...but I need a round that my wife wont be afraid to shoot, but has still got a enough power for SD.

I figure given the fact that Im only into the lower end of the 357 range that it certainly isnt going to seem like we're going for overkill or anything.

I have a Ruger SP101 357 magnum, so we have lots of room to play, but I think I found that about 7gr of Unique is just about the max she's going to be ok with. Still nowhere near the level of the obnoxious 357 magnum rounds we bought when we got the Ruger that were making my arm sore, and Im using to shooting a 30-30 TC Contender 10" barrel without whining too much.

I was looking at those charts just to get some ideas...thinking about trying Universal sometime, maybe HP-38 too, but the chart seemed to be a bit off compared to some of the other data Ive been looking over.
Just wanted to see what you guys thought

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Good find there RugerSP. Trying to figure this out a little, I noticed that if you go up to a 158gr bullet there is a 1.0gr difference in starting and max load for the 38special with cast lead.

158 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Universal .358" 1.475" 3.5 756 9,600 CUP 4.5 974 16,700 CUP

This might indicate that with that light bullet it doesn't take much more powder to get up to pressure. With a heavier bullet the pressure curve would be more stretched out.....Maybe?

From my experience Universal and HP-38 are great powders for downloaded cartridges. I shoot those two powders alot in 38sp/357mag and 44sp/44mag.

...Jimbo

 

[Snake45]

From my experience Universal and HP-38 are great powders for downloaded cartridges.

...Jimbo

I'll second that for HP-38. Actually I've never used HP-38, but I've used kegs of the stuff under its other name, Winchester 231. Handloading expert Charlie Petty has confirmed that both powders are identical, just sold under different names, and if you check Hogdon's manual, you'll see that load data for the two powders are always identical. 231 is good stuff! :wink:

 

[RugerSP101]

Thanks for all the help guys
Im definitely glad I decided to go with the 357 at this rate. Seems to be much less chance of blowing myself up
Seems like a 357 can handle over 40,000 CUP, which I certainly dont ever intend to go into the 30's, let alone push even close to the maximum loads.

I shot about 30 rounds of these Hornady XTP's that I loaded with 7 grains of Unique in the 38 special casing using CCI magnum primers.
They seemed 'stout' but didnt jam my wrist or anything...probably a stern +p or +p+ or so. Definitely manageable with no signs of pressure problems (casings seemed fine, no primer anomalies).

So at this point we have two recipes we use.

Range ammo - 4 gr Unique with 158 gr cast LRN (pure lead so keepin it slow) in either the 38 spec or 357 mag casings

Defense ammo - 7 gr Unique with 125 gr Hornady FP/XTP in the 38 spec casings (just what I have more of)

They both shoot great, but does anyone have any input on either ?

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Those loads look good, really mild, but why the 125gr FP (flat point) XTP's? I think it would be better to use the 125gr HP (hollow point) XTP's for self defense. I believe those FP XTP's are target bullets.

I have thought of loading-up some self-defense rounds between 38+P and 357mag. I would probably use a 357mag case and use 125gr or 158gr HP XTP's for that.

...Jimbo

 

[RugerSP101]

Those loads look good, really mild, but why the 125gr FP (flat point) XTP's? I think it would be better to use the 125gr HP (hollow point) XTP's for self defense. I believe those FP XTP's are target bullets.

Vances was very limited on choices when I went up to get them. I think they had the 125gr and maybe 158gr. I kept switching the box while I was waiting to be helped, and had the 125gr box when they finally called my number.
Next time I buy any Im going to order them online so I can get what I might want instead of having to choose between 2 things in stock at Vances

I too have thought of loading-up some self-defense rounds between 38+P and 357mag. I would probably use a 357mag case and use 125gr or 158gr HP XTP's for that too.

...Jimbo

Whats interesting is that Ive heard not to use handloads for SD because a prosecutor could make it look like you were trying to make some super killer round or something.
But if you think about it, if you have a 357 capable of some really heavy loads, but are well below with your own loads, I can see how you lawyer could really make it look like you were going out of your way to NOT have a maxed out load.

I have to make sure my wife is able to handle the gun, which is my biggest concern, and shes terrified of the 357 magnum rounds we've tried, and the 38 specials and +P's havent really been impressive so far.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Whats interesting is that Ive heard not to use handloads for SD because a prosecutor could make it look like you were trying to make some super killer round or something.
But if you think about it, if you have a 357 capable of some really heavy loads, but are well below with your own loads, I can see how you lawyer could really make it look like you were going out of your way to NOT have a maxed out load.

I read somewhere that there has never been a case in court that used that argument against a shooter. I suppose anything is possible and if one ends up in court because of a shooting that would be one less thing to worry about but at that point you've probably lost almost everything defending yourself anyway. There is also that thing about modifying a gun but really I think in the end it would come down to whether it was a good shooting or not, and not what ammo you were using. :shock:
BTW I use factory ammo in my SD gun.

...Jimbo

 

[contender]

RugerSP101; Get your wife more comfortable shooting a 22 first,,, a LOT,,,!!!!!!!!!!!
Then work on light 38 spl. target loads in the 357 before she does much work with "magnum" loads.
Have her become a good shooter before she advances to more powerful ammo,,, especially in a SP-101.

Next,, as for using reloads in SD guns. As mentioned above,, according to the NRA,, I've not been able to find a single case where a prosecutor went after a person for using reloads.
(You should see what we use in our SP's for SD.)

 

[Snake45]

Next,, as for using reloads in SD guns. As mentioned above,, according to the NRA,, I've not been able to find a single case where a prosecutor went after a person for using reloads.
(You should see what we use in our SP's for SD.)

Maybe you can be the first. I'll wait for you here. :?