Cartridge designs, handguns......

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Bob Wright

Hawkeye
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
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Location
Memphis, TN USA
I feel loquacious today, so forgive me if I seem wordy. The question has been asked on another forum about the difference in the .32 revolver cartridge and the .32 ACP. And that just dips the bucket into my well of knowledge.

Handgun cartridges, especially those of some age, are generally comparatively short straight walled cartridges, or with very little taper. Admittedly some are indeed bottleneck, especially the Winchester rounds of the Nineteenth Century. These were designed for the short action Winchester rifles of the era. Most cartridges had their birth dates during the last of the Nineteenth or early Twentieth Century.

Revolver cartridges with very prominent rims (I'm speaking primarily of American rounds here.) are designs of Smith & Wesson or Merwin Hulbert, the guns of which utilized multiple "star" extractors. Colt designed rounds have very small rims, just enough to keep the cartridge from going too deep into the chamber. Whether this was intentional, to prevent their use in multiple extraction revolvers, or not, has never been factually determined.

Auto pistol cartridges usually are rimless, or have a rim that is no larger in diameter than the case body, and will have a prominent extractor groove, usually sharply beveled. This to provide clearance for the extractor. Currently manufactured revolver cartridges have a cannelure just ahead of the rim, but is smaller and more square shouldered. This is a manufacturing feature only, though does add some stress relief to the case construction. And some pistol rounds have a slight rim, though not as pronounced as revolver cartridges.

Revolver cartridges, the .41 Magnum has the modern groove ahead of the rim:



.45 ACP cartridges, not the sloped shoulder of the extractor groove:



Vintage .44 cartridges. Not the larger rim of the MH round compared to the Colt and Remington rounds:





(Now stepping down from the pulpit.)

Bob Wright
 
you started with the 32.

I was given a 32 auto (CZ27) that the owner said was loud and stung his hand. with the gun, I got halve a box of 32 S&W!
 
Bob, Thank you, that was good information.

Now, for your next homework assignment, we need you to prepare a tutorial on all of the bullet and cartridge nomenclature systems used starting with the round ball muzzle loaders, then the black powder cartridges, and on to the modern smokeless loads.

Also please explain why dimensions just as .308 were rounded down to .30 when it should have been rounded up to .31, and the odd mess of .41, .44, and .45.

Also include why .30-30 and .30-40 Krag were given black powder nomenclature when they were only loaded with smokeless powders.

This assignment should keep you out of mischief for several weeks. :)
 
SAJohn said:
Also include why .30-30 and .30-40 Krag were given black powder nomenclature when they were only loaded with smokeless powders.

This one's easy. Early smokeless powders were made to measure bulk-for-bulk (volume-for-volume) the same as black powder. Shooters were familiar with the black powder nomenclature, which usually included both the caliber and the weight (by volume) of powder, such as .45-70 and .44-40. The .30-30 and .30-40 were loaded with 30 and 40 grains (by volume) of bulk smokeless powder, respectively. Of course, their "official" names were not .30-30 and .30-40, but rather .30 Winchester Center Fire and .30 US Government (the latter until the .30-03 came along which, naturally, consists of caliber plus year of introduction!)

Even when it's simple, it's confusing.
 
SAJohn said:
Bob, Thank you, that was good information.



Also please explain why dimensions just as .308 were rounded down to .30 when it should have been rounded up to .31, and the odd mess of .41, .44, and .45.

Again, not too hard to explain (usually). The .30 refers to the bore size (the actual size of the hole bored in to the barrel), while the .308 refers to the bullet diameter, which equals the bore diameter plus the depth of the grooves. Similarly, the .303 uses a .310 bullet, and various .45's use .452, .454, or .458 bullets. So -- why is a .44 actually a .429, and a .38 actually a .357? Simple -- .44 is bigger than .43, and .38 is bigger than .357, and who wants a puny .43 or .36 when you can have a big ol' .44 or .38? :lol:
 
.38 and .44 are both named after the heeled bullet dimensions that existed prior to internally lubricated bullets. .38 Special is based on the .38 Short Colt, and .44 Special is based on the .44 S&W American (both of which have nearly true dimensions for their respective bullet sizes).

More interesting to me is the number of semi-rimmed cartridges, like .25, .32, and .38 ACP, developed before John Browning figured out how to headspace cartridges on the case mouth in semi-automatic pistols.
 
Soooooooooooooo What happened to the nomenclature with the 38-40 not following the rules????????? It should be a 40-38 :D
Oh yea now lets go from 44 cap and ball to 45 center fire :wink:

Bob,
You still get an A+++ from me on your lettering. Once a Draftsman always a Draftsman :D It is better than mine. :wink:
 
Wyandot Jim said:
Soooooooooooooo What happened to the nomenclature with the 38-40 not following the rules????????? It should be a 40-38 :D
Oh yea now lets go from 44 cap and ball to 45 center fire :wink:

Bob,
You still get an A+++ from me on your lettering. Once a Draftsman always a Draftsman :D It is better than mine. :wink:


At its introduction, the .38-40 was known as the .38 Winchester Center Fire, or .38 W.C.F. True, it is actually a .40 caliber, so why was it designated a .38? According to most sources, the .44 W.C.F. was promoted as a deer rifle, and the newer .40 caliber rifle was promoted as a small game rifle. So Winchester adopted the .38 designation to emphasize that it was intended as a small caliber rifle and would not overlap the .44 caliber.


Bob Wright
 
NikA said:
.38 and .44 are both named after the heeled bullet dimensions that existed prior to internally lubricated bullets. .38 Special is based on the .38 Short Colt, and .44 Special is based on the .44 S&W American (both of which have nearly true dimensions for their respective bullet sizes).

More interesting to me is the number of semi-rimmed cartridges, like .25, .32, and .38 ACP, developed before John Browning figured out how to headspace cartridges on the case mouth in semi-automatic pistols.

Actually the .38 Special was derived from the .38 Long Colt/.38 Army cartridge, and that derived from the .38 Navy. The .38 Navy was the cartridge used in cartridge conversions of the 1851/1862 Colt Navy revolvers.

Bob Wright
 
Perhaps someday Mr Wright, from your vast cartridge collection you will show us the difference between a .45 Colt cartridge that is longer than a .45 Colt cartridge that is shorter with both cartridges having the same dimensions except for the case length and possibly the bullet shape and weight. :shock:
 
Colonel Daddy said:
Perhaps someday Mr Wright, from your vast cartridge collection you will show us the difference between a .45 Colt cartridge that is longer than a .45 Colt cartridge that is shorter with both cartridges having the same dimensions except for the case length and possibly the bullet shape and weight. :shock:

As you wish, Sir!



And, the headstamps of those cartridges:



Bob Wright
 

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