Carry Ammo, reloads or factory

[Rex Driver]

I am a retired cop with 26 years of experience and understand some of the potential problems if you have to use handloads in a self defense issue. I weigh these out and still I carry my own reloads as personal defense loads. I was wondering what the general feeling in the Ruger Community was on this issue.

I have been reloading for over 30 years and did not have any problems with squibs or fail to fire with two exceptions. I know a lot of people in the Cowboy arena love to load with Trail Boss, however, on my Lee Disk Measures I could not get it to throw consistant and sold my last Lb and a half for less than a Lb would cost. I have also had a problem with one GP 100 that I put extra light springs in having light primer hits about 10% of the time. Needless to say I do not load defense loads with Trail Boss, nor do I carry that 6" GP 100 for defense.

Sorry to get off topic, however, I am still interested in your thoughts on defense ammo.

 

[Hammer]

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There seems to be two strongly divided opinions on this topic of handloads for self-defense.


The Massad Ayoob school maintains there is a large body of evidence that any one carrying a handloaded cartridge for self-defense is begging the local prosecuting attorney and civil litigation attorneys to attack with a vengeance in the event of a righteous self-defense shooting. That masses of innocent people have been sent to the electric chair or life in prison without parole and their family's fortunes lost on the basis of a handloaded cartridge.


The Jim Wilson camp maintains there is no such body of court evidence or precedent and that the whole issue is much to do about nothing. That if you are a skilled, responsibly handloader, go to it.



A third issue sneaks in from the side door. Small custom ammo loaders who are properly licensed to make and sell ammo and produce boutique ammo on request, e.g., please load me some 1,000 fps JHP 45 ACP with a bullet not commonly available from the nationally recognized ammo makers and sell it to me in a properly labeled box. The ammo is factory loaded and labeled, but its improved performance causes the carrier to be labeled a bad person.

As to Ruger fans, some of us might accidentally have some Corbons, Buffalo Bores, or others in our cylinders.

Heck, a Ruger single-action fan might have been in the outdoors observing nature and forget to swap our leisure ammo with politically-correct ammo.

We are a forgetful bunch and our cylinders might have some Keith or LBT WFN bullets with a Keith load of 2400.


Now, this would never happen with S&W fans. Or those fans of European polymer guns.


.

 

[mike7mm08]

I cannot legally carry in my state. But the home defense guns are loaded with reloads except the shotgun. I look at it this way if you use the same bullet as factory ammo and run the bullets at similar velocities there should not be a problem. Granted some slimeball lawyer might try to make a case that your ammo is more deadly than factory. I load in large quantities how many dozen of the same load you want to test to confirm they are no different than factory loads. I would rather deal with a very very small chance that I would need to defend myself in court over reloads than deal with,in my experience, a greater chance of factory ammo not being as reliable. Rather be judged by 12 than carried by six. I will only use a gun and ammo combo for defense that is totally reliable less than one percent failure rate. So far I have yet to find a gun with my reloads that I can even recall having problems with.

 

[tomiswho]

I tend to agree with the Jim Wilson argument:
"The Jim Wilson camp maintains there is no such body of court evidence or precedent and that the whole issue is much to do about nothing. That if you are a skilled, responsibly handloader, go to it."

I too, have never seen any reference to actual court cases in this regard. I'm sure there are a few, but juries are pretty unpredictable......

I always figured shooting was "deadly force" and the object was for the bullets to be deadly. I can see a jury being more upset if you pumped 19 rounds into a home invader, reloaded, and pumped 19 more.....

 

[Hammer]

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I can see a jury being more upset if you pumped 19 rounds into a home invader, reloaded, and pumped 19 more.....

Back when I was a child in Tennessee, there was a trial where the defendant, a dentist I think, shot his wife 27 times in self-defense with a revolver.

After three hung juries, they appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court claiming trying a man three separate times was cruel and unusual in and of itself.

The public was sympathetic to the dentist since dentists are difficult to come by in Tennessee.

And the woman was a Yankee. "Overbearing", the dentist said. She wasn't even a Baptist, as a I recall.


Don't remember the outcome.



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[buckshotshorty]

A while back, there was a news show on TV which profiled a teacher ( I believe it was in Utah) who had been found guilty of manslaughter after shooting a man in a situation that he thought was self defense.

It went down something like this: he was out on a walk in a rural area, when all of a sudden, two large dogs came running toward him snarling and growling. He drew his legally carried 10mm handgun, and fired a round in the dogs' direction, hoping to stop their advance. At that point the dogs' owner came running out of the woods cursing and charging at the guy threatening him bodily harm, however, he had no weapon. The armed man fired at the potential attacker, hitting him twice and killing him.

In an interview with jurors after the trial, two of them stated that what turned it for them was the fact that the licensed gun owner carried hollow point ammunition, and that the intent of such ammo was to kill, and not just to wound.

The whole case left me scratching my head!

Moral of the story: hope you never have to use your firearm no matter what ammo you're carrying.

 

[DGW1949]

Ain't my place to tell others how to run there business but being's how you asked......

Being an old ex-cop myself, I've got a perty good handle on how things go down in my County, and in Texas in general. I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that a rightious self-defense killing won't get past the gran jury stage here....and even if by some off-chance it did, it's a sure bet that a Texas jury aint going to care two hoots and a holler what kind of ammo was used to dispatch the bad guy.....and would care even LESS about some lawyer who was trying to railroad the good guy by bringing up something that superflous.

Having said all that....
My personal SD load is the same as my hunting load, which is the same as my plinking/target load, which is the same as was my CAS load back when I was invloved in that particular game.....Namely...a 45 Cal, 255-SWC over 8-8.5 grains of Unique (depending on the gun). And yeah, I load 'em myself.

Way back when, I also carried handloads in my duty gun(s)....sometimes against the rules, sometimes not.
Today, my Wife's SD gun (a Smith 36) is loaded with 158-SWC's over enough Unique to duplicate the old 38 Spl service load....as-is my 35 year old daughter's Charter Arms revolver. And FWIW, my wife is an ex-cop too....and shares the same outlook on such things as I do.....meaning that in my book, when considering/planning-for something as serious as fighting for your life, worrying over a bunch of "what if's" based solely on what some glorified gun writter has to say on the matter just aint part of the equasion. So for me and mine, I'll just stick to what I know works....if you get my drift.

But that's just me. You do what you think is best for you.

DGW

 

[Snake45]

I am a retired cop with 26 years of experience and understand some of the potential problems if you have to use handloads in a self defense issue. I weigh these out and still I carry my own reloads as personal defense loads. I was wondering what the general feeling in the Ruger Community was on this issue.

My general feeling is that you don't yet understand enough of the potential problems in using roll-your-own ammo for SD.

Long story short: Don't do it. As Fred Rexer Jr. so conciselly put it, "Use REAL bullets for REAL threats!"

Isn't your life and the life of your loved ones worth a box of factory ammo? If your answer is "no," I really don't know what else to say to you. :?

 

[mike7mm08]

A while back, there was a news show on TV which profiled a teacher ( I believe it was in Utah) who had been found guilty of manslaughter after shooting a man in a situation that he thought was self defense.

It went down something like this: he was out on a walk in a rural area, when all of a sudden, two large dogs came running toward him snarling and growling. He drew his legally carried 10mm handgun, and fired a round in the dogs' direction, hoping to stop their advance. At that point the dogs' owner came running out of the woods cursing and charging at the guy threatening him bodily harm, however, he had no weapon. The armed man fired at the potential attacker, hitting him twice and killing him.

In an interview with jurors after the trial, two of them stated that what turned it for them was the fact that the licensed gun owner carried hollow point ammunition, and that the intent of such ammo was to kill, and not just to wound.

The whole case left me scratching my head!

Moral of the story: hope you never have to use your firearm no matter what ammo you're carrying.

It was in Arizona case was reversed and not retried.

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/welcome.htm

 

[flatgate]

Around here, IMHO, Personal Defense Ammo has two opponents. #1 is LARGE CARNIVORES. #2 is the extremely scarce and rarely encountered "Perp".

I generally carry a large bore capable of defending my "bacon" against a
toothy critter.

The two legged perps won't have a chance.

flatgate

 

[Rex Driver]

I am a retired cop with 26 years of experience and understand some of the potential problems if you have to use handloads in a self defense issue. I weigh these out and still I carry my own reloads as personal defense loads. I was wondering what the general feeling in the Ruger Community was on this issue.

My general feeling is that you don't yet understand enough of the potential problems in using roll-your-own ammo for SD.

Long story short: Don't do it. As Fred Rexer Jr. so conciselly put it, "Use REAL bullets for REAL threats!"

Isn't your life and the life of your loved ones worth a box of factory ammo? If your answer is "no," I really don't know what else to say to you. :?

Snake45, I understand where you are comming from, however, with much respect, must disagree with you. I have just as much faith in the ammo that I reload as I do in the brakes that I iinstall on my car, my wife's car and those on my son's car. I have (With total success, other than the two former mentioned debacles, reloaded for over 30 years with complete success. One of my, now departed, best friends was a gunsmith of over 40 years. This man taught me how to reload safely and effectively as well as allowing me to chrono many loads and even pull down factory loads to see what was inside of them.

I have complete faith in working on the family vehicles that offer much more constant potential danger than a gun protects us from. I have faith in my ability to build a teardrop camper and heat it in the winter without killing us. Why should I have any less faith in something else that I have been doing with success for over 30 years? I also subscribe to the fact of doing what I must to protect, both me and my family and then having the decision made later as to how right I was. My complete belief in home defense is stated by the sXs shotgun that is beside my bed, if I need to use it to protect me and my family, after pulling both triggers there is only one decision to be made, what color to repaint the walls.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Carry in my part of the world isn't something many can do. However, I kinda doubt you want to break into many houses in my neighborhood in the middle of the night... nudge, nudge, wink, wink!

In deciding for myself what kind of ammo is ok in HD guns, I went to the horse's mouth and asked:

For many years I ran a trap & skeet range. One group of regular shooters we had were prosecutors w/ the local District Attorney's office. We had some enlightening conversations. Among them was the "reloads for SD/HD" question.

They all agreed they'd never seen anyone prosecuted for using handloads in such a situation. What they were concerned w/ was "Did you shoot the guy? Why?" and a couple of related issues.

That's from a criminal standpoint.

Now there's the civil one, which is where I'd figure more "creative" arguments MAY prevail (at least judging from the little bit of civil action I've witnessed.)

I only know of two situations personally that involved civilians having to shoot "perps." Both got the attention of the DA's office; one saw a civil filing as well. One of the BGs took five rounds from a .38 and survived (big guy on drugs, PCP was popular when this happened.) The other one took a single round and expired.

Both shooters were exonerated before ever seeing the inside of a criminal court. The BG who survived turned around and sued the homeowner for "violating his rights" or some such nonsense. The case was thrown out rather quickly. The homeowner's advice AFTER all this played out was simple: "I had one more round in the gun, but stopped shooting when he went down. Next time, I'll make sure the guy goes out in a bag! It's simpler. And cheaper."

So we put all this in the pot and let it simmer... and until I think it's done, I figure UNTIL I have to shoot someone (God forbid!) I have no problem w/ what's in the gun, either "legally" or functionally. Should it ever reach that point, I guess I'll follow the advice "It makes my job easier when I write up my report if there's only one side of the story" I once got from a Sheriff's deputy, then saw reinforced by the homeowner who shot that BG who lived. I say "I guess" because things don't always play out the way we imagine they will when stuff actually starts flying out of the fan...

If things ever get that far, then I'm sure the legal "fun" will begin. Until then, I'll continue to enjoy reading Massad, but remind myself he's a gun rag writer, not a lawyer dispensing valid legal advice. If he, or anyone else, can provide searchable citations evidencing the "evil" of using handloads for SD/HD, I'll consider changing my mind...

For now, it looks like everyone has to take the best info available to them when they make their own decision.

Rick C

 

[Snake45]

I'll continue to enjoy reading Massad, but remind myself he's a gun rag writer, not a lawyer dispensing valid legal advice.

Mas is also a court-recognized expert witness in a number of states. He's also sharper on self-defense law than about 99.99% of lawyers. They go to him for advice on the subject.

If he, or anyone else, can provide searchable citations evidencing the "evil" of using handloads for SD/HD, I'll consider changing my mind...

He has.

Long story short: This shouldn't ever be an issue, but in law-land, there's a big difference between what should be and what is or what could be. It's extremely easy to make the whole issue simply disappear--why would any thinking person not want to do that?

Easiest answer to this question is, if it's at all practicable, use exactly whatever ammo the local cops use. (Can anyone name me any law enforcement agency in the US that issues reloaded ammo to its troops for duty use [not for practice or training]?)

 

[Hammer]

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Don't know if there is a clear, distinct line between practice, training ammo and ammo for routine duty use.

Not sure that all the local cops have no practice ammo in their guns at this specific moment.

Earlier this year our local LE was complaining about their ability to get ammo. Having the same problem as the rest of us. A local remanufacturer was supplying them with ammo.


Does this imply we must carry the same caliber/cartridge that the local police carry as well as their chosen side arm ?

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[Snake45]

Does this imply we must carry the same caliber/cartridge that the local police carry as well as their chosen side arm ?

.

I didn't say you must. I said that if it's practical for you, it's a damn good idea--it's extremely legally defensible.

 

[Hammer]

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Would be difficult to argue with the advice of carrying what the local LE carries. Sounds like good advice.

Still a few questions remain.

If local LE carried either Winchester Black Talon or its current equivalent with bad PR, would that be advisable under the politically-correct mindset ?

If local LE carried ammo not commonly available to the civilian population, e.g., ammo specifically marked as "for LE only", what does one do ?



Myself ? My selection of ammo depends on which pistol I am carrying.

Have been known to have a 32 ACP or 380 Auto slipped in my pocket as a backup. Those have FMJ in them to ascertain reliable feeding and penetration. Don't trust JHP in those calibers to perform. My local LE are not known to carry backup pocket pistols so have no official guidance.

Also carry FMJ in some of my 1911 45s, though the local police carry JHP. Their choice of Glocks may feed JHP more reliably than my 1911s.

When carrying 44 or 45 revolvers, carry either Keith or LBT WFN. Local LE have no similar guns to compare ammo with.

Unless I carry what the local LE carries, there is not a clear selection that matches LE duty ammo.

.

 

[Rick Courtright]

If he, or anyone else, can provide searchable citations evidencing the "evil" of using handloads for SD/HD, I'll consider changing my mind...

He has.

Hi,

Care to share some of them?

I've seen "I testified in a case in ... concerning...." stories. Those may be accurate anecdotal discussions, but are NOT citations.

Something along the lines of:

"PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF
CALIFORNIA,
Plaintiff,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,
aka O.J. SIMPSON,
Defendant.

Case No. BA097211"

or

"PEOPLE v. SIMPSON: PERSPECTIVES ON THE IMPLICATIONS FOR THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM: THE AGONY OF VICTORY AND THE ETHICS OF LAWYER SPEECH

May, 1996

69 S. Cal. L. Rev. 1627"

where we can research the court transcipts, subsequent legal analyses and such is what I've apparently missed in the stories...

I have no doubt that Massad is an "expert" in the field. His opinions are widely respected, and rightly so. But he's not an attorney, nor am I, which means his opinions carry exactly as much weight as "legal advice" as my own: NONE.

One must make one's decisions based on the best information available to them at the time. What happens next is anyone's guess. Better information that becomes available AFTER making an initial decision SHOULD be considered. Perhaps the decision will change?

I'm still looking for that "better information." Since I haven't found it yet, I appreciate others' help...

Rick C

 

[NCMountains]

I am a LEO as well and don't buy into the reloads being a potential issue. A load is a load is a load. Guns when pointed at someone meaning harm to you is deadly force point blank.

Where issues arise are shady lawyers who try to throw a curve ball to the jury and at times succeeds in doing so to convince them you stay at home just trying to create a so called "Deadly Round"!

Folks...........I hate to say this but jurors are usually idiots for the most part. They are easily swayed and can't think logically or with common sense when it comes time to.

I am experimenting with reloading myself to get the right load down for defense carry.

So don't be afraid of the loads............just the schiester lawyer that would use cunning words and talk in circles to have a jury confused more than they were before setting on a jury trial!

 

[Snake45]

.

Would be difficult to argue with the advice of carrying what the local LE carries. Sounds like good advice.

Still a few questions remain.

If local LE carried either Winchester Black Talon or its current equivalent with bad PR, would that be advisable under the politically-correct mindset ?

The local LE probably isn't carrying ammo with bad PR. If they're carrying it, it probably doesn't have bad PR in your area. (I'm not aware of any particular load that has "bad PR" at the moment--at least not any carried by any LE.)

If local LE carried ammo not commonly available to the civilian population, e.g., ammo specifically marked as "for LE only", what does one do ?

I've said "if it's practical" twice now. I have NOT said you HAVE TO go out and buy the same make, model, and caliber of gun the local LEs carry, though if you're in the market to buy, that might be a factor to take into consideration in your selection, along with other things, such as, can you afford it and does it fit your hand and so forth. If you happen to shoot the same caliber as local LE, it makes a good deal of sense to use their ammo, provided it functions 100% in your gun.

 

[Snake45]

If he, or anyone else, can provide searchable citations evidencing the "evil" of using handloads for SD/HD, I'll consider changing my mind...

He has.

Hi,

Care to share some of them?

He's cited at least one case that I know of, repeatedly. I don't have time to go back through my collection of 30+ years of gun magazines to look it up for you. It had to do with the GSR pattern of a handload, which couldn't be duplicated with factory ammo, and which seemed to indicate an innocent man was guilty.

I have no doubt that Massad is an "expert" in the field. His opinions are widely respected, and rightly so. But he's not an attorney, nor am I, which means his opinions carry exactly as much weight as "legal advice" as my own: NONE.

Uhhhh, don't think so. Come talk to me when you've won a federal case against the FBI, which Mas has done.

If you want to load your SD joint with handloads, go right ahead. Odds are you'll never have to use it anyway, and if you do, you can come back and tell us how that worked out for you. In the meantime, I'm going to take the advice of a man who's got far more experience in this area than everybody on this board put together--probably by a factor of twenty or more.