Bullet find today

[TheTexasRAT]

I posted last night a quote from the ATF website concerning the selling of ammunition. The manufacture of the projectiles was not beached. The manufacture of ammunition was mentioned, it expressed that the manufacture of ammunition (rifle, pistol and shotgun cartridges) requires a Federal License. Many of the uninitiated, unwashed, laymen refer to ammunition as "bullets" when they really mean cartridges/ammunition. When I was selling a preponderance of reloading supplies I sold approximately 1 1/2-2 tons of bullets i.e. projectiles per year. On the shipping manifests the projectiles were listed as "bullet heads" I think this term was because it was more descriptive and understandable for the unwashed laymen. BTW you don't need a Federal License to buy Smokeless Powder or Primers either.

From the many comments by "those in the know" concrete answers concerning the sale and manufacture of ammunition can be answered at the government web site www.atf.gov. Just go to the search block and type in a question.

Another occurrence of a gun store smart ass happened when I was teaching NC Concealed Handgun Course (23 years) an older lady came to the course. She had been by Rex's Guns on Upward Rd. to buy ammunition for the class. She had told the individual behind the counter she wanted a box of 9mm bullets. To get over on her (retired school teacher) he sold her a box of 100 Hornady 115 grain hollow point bullets (projectiles). Now did he do this out of spite, or his stupidity, or maybe he should have been astute enough, being a gun store employee/owner, to ask for clarification because of the confusion of the unwashed, uninitiated. It wasn't a major foul up, I also sold ammunition (no FFL required) so I swapped two boxes of Remington 115 gr FMJ for her box of Hornady hollow points. I think she came out ahead.

Ammunition and gun sales at Flea Markets is uncontrolled, the ATF rarely hit the local one, when they do the agents bring a school bus to haul off the malefactors. Being an FFL one of the requirements is that the license must be "clearly displayed". I once when through the local FM, a guy had a booth, the walls were covered with Hi-Points, I looked and looked at his counter and walls for the required "displayed" license. I didn't even find a ghost of a displayed 8x10 anything.

In post #15 of this thread I listed a URL to a webpage that explains this very well, for those seeking concrete answers. Read it and click the link to the definition of ammunition.

18 U.S. Code § 923 - Licensing

(a)No person shall engage in the business ... ... ... manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General.

18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

(a)As used in this chapter—
(17)
(A)
The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

 

[kmoore]

When I am interested in a law that I don't have complete understanding about, I search out the law and read it. Then try to understand it. But the most important thing is to look up case law about that law. There you will find what judges think and how the law has been applied.
In this example look up to see if and why people have been charged with any type of crimes mentioned without a license. There will be data on any case law regarding it. Myself I don't care and am not spending the time.
About 10 years ago I spend hours researching case law on enforcement of HR 218. The law that allows honorable retired police to CCW.
But remember case law can and does change sometimes.

 

[Sam Summey]

In post #15 of this thread I listed a URL to a webpage that explains this very well, for those seeking concrete answers. Read it and click the link to the definition of ammunition.

18 U.S. Code § 923 - Licensing

(a)No person shall engage in the business ... ... ... manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General.

18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

(a)As used in this chapter—
(17)
(A)

The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

I am not sure how old you are or how much experience you have in the "industry". I have been engaged in the FFL business for the last 20 years and been involved with firearms since 1964, never once in the last 61 years, in my knowledge, has anyone been charged with a crime for selling primers, powder, or bullets (projectiles) as individual components with a crime. I have known many to do so, and down South, Mom and Pop country stores have been selling ammunition without a license since I started noticing guns and ammunition when I was about 4 years old.

I will point out that I regularly get reports from the ATFE on prosecution successes of their agents. Naturally, their description in "definition" which is not necessarily "law" will be as broad and inclusive as possible just like their definition of ghost gun kits, arm braces, etc. which is not law but only their rulings. That is the problem with giving ATFE too much power with out congressional oversite. If I understand how law-making works, congress passes a law, then the agency who enforces the law, "writes" the code. After that happens the "code" gets written in to the "Congressional Record". A law just sits there until the Supreme Court says it is un-constitutional, then the law continues sitting until someone is charged with the crime.

People wouldn't have been doing it for the last 61 years if it were against the law. The point is US Code is not the LAW, neither is the definition.

As you have pointed out in other postings, your IQ surpasses 99.9% of that of all the members on the Forum, and your education certainly surpasses mine. I am sure your ability to quantify and qualify the twists and turns of US Law surpasses all understanding. Your next step is to SWAT me., I am sure you, with your infinite intellect, you already know my address.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

I am not sure how old you are or how much experience you have in the "industry". I have been engaged in the FFL business for the last 20 years and been involved with firearms since 1964, never once in the last 61 years, in my knowledge, has anyone been charged with a crime for selling primers, powder, or bullets (projectiles) as individual components with a crime. I have known many to do so, and down South, Mom and Pop country stores have been selling ammunition without a license since I started noticing guns and ammunition when I was about 4 years old.

I will point out that I regularly get reports from the ATFE on prosecution successes of their agents. Naturally, their description in "definition" which is not necessarily "law" will be as broad and inclusive as possible just like their definition of ghost gun kits, arm braces, etc. which is not law but only their rulings. That is the problem with giving ATFE too much power with out congressional oversite. If I understand how law-making works, congress passes a law, then the agency who enforces the law, "writes" the code. After that happens the "code" gets written in to the "Congressional Record". A law just sits there until the Supreme Court says it is un-constitutional, then the law continues sitting until someone is charged with the crime.

People wouldn't have been doing it for the last 61 years if it were against the law. The point is US Code is not the LAW, neither is the definition.

As you have pointed out in other postings, your IQ surpasses 99.9% of that of all the members on the Forum, and your education certainly surpasses mine. I am sure your ability to quantify and qualify the twists and turns of US Law surpasses all understanding. Your next step is to SWAT me., I am sure you, with your infinite intellect, you already know my address.

You should go back and re-read the code, it said no person shall manufacture ammunition for sale with out a license, not that they could not re-sell legally manufactured ammunition with out a license. Big difference. And it did define the components of a cartridge as ammunition, which makes manufacturing non-licensed bullets for sale a so-called crime. I never said that anyone ever got in trouble for having done so, just that they should not brag about doing so on a public forum where Government agents lurk about.

P.S. - If you were going around making life altering threats I would definitely be concerned with your mental stability and therefore setup you an appointment with the FBI, but you do not come across as needing intervention - so whoopty do. Personally, I could care less how many laws one breaks so long as they do not violate other people's rights or cause a concern for their safety, which would include reckless conduct and terroristic threats.

P.S.S. - If my formal education surpasses yours's you have my sympathies.

 

[Sam Summey]

You should go back and re-read the code, it said no person shall manufacture ammunition for sale with out a license, not that they could not re-sell legally manufactured ammunition with out a license. Big difference. And it did define the components of a cartridge as ammunition, which makes manufacturing non-licensed bullets for sale a so-called crime. I never said that anyone ever got in trouble for having done so, just that they should not brag about doing so on a public forum where Government agents lurk about.

P.S. - If you were going around making life altering threats I would definitely be concerned with your mental stability and therefore setup you an appointment with the FBI, but you do not come across as needing intervention - so whoopty do. Personally, I could care less how many laws one breaks so long as they do not violate other people's rights or cause a concern for their safety, which would include reckless conduct and terroristic threats.

P.S.S. - If my formal education surpasses yours's you have my sympathies.

It is my belief that ATFE are too busy looking for firearms violators to even bother with Bill Bob squatting over a charcoal fire in his back yard casting bullets. Even though he may have a SAECO automatic casting machine turning out thousands of bullets like my deceased friend Herman Stone did 40 years ago. Herman supplied bullets to every gun shop with reloading supplies throughout Western NC. BTW he was well known but he never had a FFL. Making a bullet takes as much skill as it takes to make a fishing weight. folks cast those too. I would consider the Code that mentions bullets is nothing more than words of alleged violations a mention of convenience for charging an individual with a crime or obtaining a warrant. A person with a lawyer worth his salt could and would point out that the "Code" forbidding the making bullets for sale unconstitutional. This has been done in defense of Ghost Guns or even scratch made guns. Individuals have been making bullets as long on the continent as the first European landed.

My opinion is you have too much time on your hands. More and more I get the feeling that you are nothing more than a person trolling this forum. After reading you responses, all 261 of them, you have contributed nothing but descension.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

It is my belief that ATFE are too busy looking for firearms violators to even bother with Bill Bob squatting over a charcoal fire in his back yard casting bullets. Even though he may have a SAECO automatic casting machine turning out thousands of bullets like my deceased friend Herman Stone did 40 years ago. Herman supplied bullets to every gun shop with reloading supplies throughout Western NC. BTW he was well known but he never had a FFL. Making a bullet takes as much skill as it takes to make a fishing weight. folks cast those too. I would consider the Code that mentions bullets is nothing more than words of alleged violations a mention of convenience for charging an individual with a crime or obtaining a warrant. A person with a lawyer worth his salt could and would point out that the "Code" forbidding the making bullets for sale unconstitutional. This has been done in defense of Ghost Guns or even scratch made guns. Individuals have been making bullets as long on the continent as the first European landed.

My opinion is you have too much time on your hands. More and more I get the feeling that you are nothing more than a person trolling this forum. After reading you responses, all 261 of them, you have contributed nothing but descension.

The dissention I delve out only goes toward the trolls whom belittled me first. So nanny nanny boo boo! Stick your head in poo poo. On the other hand if you ever get you head where the sun shines perhaps we could be more civil. Just saying, take it for what it's worth if you're capable.

Then again some just ain't got what it takes to recognize a genius.

 

[Sam Summey]

The dissention I delve out only goes toward the trolls whom belittled me first. So nanny nanny boo boo! Stick your head in poo poo. On the other hand if you ever get you head where the sun shines perhaps we could be more civil. Just saying, take it for what it's worth if you're capable.

Then again some just ain't got what it takes to recognize a genius.

From the atf.gov web site and I copied from Q&A:

Is a license required to engage in the business of selling small arms ammunition?

No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only. However a license is required to manufacture or import ammunition.
[18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B); 27 CFR 478.41]]
Last Reviewed April 12, 2022

I have a strong suspicion that :
Manufacture of propellant, and primers require a Federal License of some sort.
Manufacture of projectiles not so much as long as they are not armor piercing or explosive. ATF seems like they have their panties in a wad over these items.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

From the atf.gov web site and I copied from Q&A:

Is a license required to engage in the business of selling small arms ammunition?

No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only. However a license is required to manufacture ... ammunition.
[18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B); 27 CFR 478.41]]
Last Reviewed April 12, 2022

Exactly.

I have a strong suspicion that :
Manufacture of propellant, and primers require a Federal License of some sort.
Manufacture of projectiles not so much as long as they are not armor piercing or explosive. ATF seems like they have their panties in a wad over these items.

No point in arguing against "a strong suspicion", so I'll politely agree to disagree here.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Argue all you two want to but you both are ignoring the word "manufacturing" that suggests commercial sales. Sure the rules are muddy but it is 100% illegal to sell ammo built at home and it is 100% illegal to sell bullets made at home. It is not at all illegal to sell any of those components that are MANUFACTURED or produced commercially whether they are sole components or assembled commercially. The suggestion a gun store would sell home made ammo is silly and stupid but possibly happens.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

Argue all you two want to but you both are ignoring the word "manufacturing" that suggests commercial sales. Sure the rules are muddy but it is 100% illegal to sell ammo built at home and it is 100% illegal to sell bullets made at home. It is not at all illegal to sell any of those components that are MANUFACTURED or produced commercially whether they are sole components or assembled commercially. The suggestion a gun store would sell home made ammo is silly and stupid but possibly happens.

I agree with your assessment 100%, as that is what I have been trying to convey all along.

 

[FFguide]

Not an expert. Just my exposure to life. It seems a lot of procedures/ activities are illegal unless you purchase a permit, license or notify some higher authority. Maybe we broadcast what we do too frequently. Just my opinion.

 

[larry8]

However I think it is OK to make all the lead bullets for your reloading press you want as long as you don't sell them.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Both true.

 

[kmoore]

I did spend some spare time (30 mins or more) trying to find any court cases charging anyone with selling homemade bullets without a license. I saw ammunition sales without a license. I didn't look into those cases but think it was importer or exporter of ammunition without a proper license. ATF cases almost always deal with firearms, legal and illegal type.
Thinking about Gun Shows I have attended in OR/WA/ID and knowing ATF does check those out. I have seen cast bullets for sale in plastic bags but never asked about who made them. I have cast thousands of bullets and would not buy any, anyway.
I have never read about anyone getting arrested for selling homemade cast bullets w/o a license but all that said I can't say it never has happened.
I am not going to do it and find out what happens.