Building myself a new 77MkII , got a few ?'s

[rugerjunkie]

Well I got myself a donor rifle yesterday to do my build. Now all I have to do is figure out what caliber I want! It is a long action. I plan on keeping it to one I already shoot and load for in the larger calibers. It will be for deer on up since I don't have any shortage on the smaller varmint catagory calibers around here.

Currently that is...
257 - 25-06
264/6.5 - 264WM
7mm - 7mmRM
308 - 30-06
358 - 350RM

There aren't a lot of others out there that will do much better than the 25-06's I've already got so I will probably rule that one out. I am interested in another one in the '06 case and have tbought about a 6.5-06,280,or 35 Whelen. If I go with a belted case I am leaning towards a 358 Norma. There are a lot of wildcats out there that I am not familiar with and there may be better options in the 35 without a belted case so opinions are welcome there. Are the Ruger compact magnums a standard long action round? That case may be a good one for a 358 also but I don't know a lot about them yet.

Another question is for opinions on Ackley Improved cases. I see 30 and 40 degree shoulders. Any benefit with one or the other? Or simply not enough gain for the added expense for dies and brass? Or the time and extra step to form brass?

Right now I am thinking either a 280 or another 35 cal. I really like the 350RM and the results I've had shooting and hunting with it. But , I have also always wanted a 280. This build will get me into a rifle that is in a caliber I'm interested in that isn't offered through the factory and in a barrel length more appropriate for the given round also.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Con]

If you like the idea of a 280Rem ... build it!

I'm waiting on a barrel to build a 6mm-06, will probably go on either a Rem700 or pushfeed M70 action ... unless an old M77 drops into my field of view in the next couple of weeks.

In your case, is your long action with the magnum 0.532" bolt face or standard 0.473" bolt face? Let that also guide your choice of chambering as its a waste of money to open bolt faces and modify magazines and rails when you can already buy a donor action set up for your intended cartridge.
Cheers...
Con

 

[rugerjunkie]

Con,

Thanks for your reply. I forgot about the bolt face! The donor rifle is a 270 so a 280 or 35 Whelen makes more sense.

What about the debate of an Ackley Improved vs a standard chambering? I read a lot of posts that make the debate pretty much a wash but have yet to hear anything to convince me of one or the other.

Either a 280 or 35 , standard or Imp. out of a 26" barrel would make for a heck of a rifle!

Jeff

 

[c.r.]

I really like the idea of the 35 Whelen.........or you could do a 338-06. Those would be my two choices. I believe my next rifle will be a 35 Whelen. In a pinch I probably could find Whelen ammo somewhere.

And i'm probably a bit biased to choose the 35 Whelen........ I don't have one, but I do have a 280

I also like the 35 Rem Mag.........but If i was to build one of them, i'd do it on a Model 7 platform......... or I'd do the 338 Federal/338-08 cartridge on it.

~c.r.

 

[rugerjunkie]

I like the idea of a 338-06 too but to keep things simple in the reloading room I would go with a 35. That and after using my 350 for a few years I have become a 35 cal fan. How does your 280 perform?

 

[c.r.]

I like the idea of a 338-06 too but to keep things simple in the reloading room I would go with a 35. That and after using my 350 for a few years I have become a 35 cal fan. How does your 280 perform?

to be honest, i haven't even shot the .280. in Feb of 2009, I found a Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation Ruger in .280, NIB on a dealer's shelf for a reasonble dime so i snagged it. I use my .270s for most everything. I honestly doubt there's much of a difference between the .280 and the .270.

The .280 is still unfired

But the 35 Whelen.........well it can throw 250 grain slugs. something my 30-06, .270's, .280, and 7-08 can't do. i kind of painted myself in a corner with those rifles. any one of them can do whatever i would ask of the others. At least for the game here in TX

 

[rugerjunkie]

I hear ya! This build won't give me anyhing I haven't already got but am just in the mood for something different. The 280? Have a 7mag. The whelen? Have a 350RM. A 6.5-06? Have a 264WM. Maybe I do need a 338-06! Or maybe a 375-06?? Exept for the 280 option I am wanting to throw heavy slugs! Recoil doesn't matter to me...that's why i was thinking 358 Norma for a while too.

Jeff

 

[mattsbox99]

It would be very tough for me to choose between a .280 or 6.5/06. However, if you want to do a .280 Improved, 30 degree I have a set of custom RCBS dies for you.

I have a plain old .280 that I like, its quite accurate and drops deer like they are bags of concrete mix.

 

[rugerjunkie]

Hey there Matt,

Thanks for that offer. We'll see where the project goes. Can you elaborate on the 30 vs 40 degree shoulders? I imagine it would matter more for feeding on the smaller calibers with a lot of shoulder vs a whelen with hardly any shoulder at all.

 

[Pinecone]

rugerjunkie, P.O. Ackley was of a different sort. He liked doing things others had not done, just for the "hang" of it. If you had ever worked on some of his single shot rifle "modifications", you'de know what I was talking about! He liked trying things when it came to "new" cartridges. The reason none of his cartridges ever "took off" is because they were never really much of an improvement over what already existed. Personally I would stay away from his cartridges. However, he was an excellent "inovative" gunsmith! I do enjoy taking guns apart that he has modified whenever I get that "rare" opportunity!..................Dick :wink:

 

[rugerjunkie]

Dick,

Wasn't the one thing about an Ackley vs a standard is the longer case life? The sharper shoulder reduces the amount of flow on the sboulder? From what little I've found to read up on so far,the 6.5-06 and 280 improved rounds are a noticable increase. Even if it is only noticable by the shooter and his chrony...I doubt there is a deer out there that would notice!

 

[Pinecone]

rj, Yes, a lot of different claims have been made by various gun rag writers about his cartridges but other well known gun people such as the late George C. Nonte regularly disputed some of those claims. I learned a lot about guns along the way from Nonte's writings and never found him to put out erroneous info. However, to each his own. I personally would not convert a rifle to an Ackley cartridge.................Dick :wink:

 

[picketpin]

Okay: I'll play the Devils Advocate. As you have said, you already own rifles that do basically anything the new one will. You just want a "new" rifle. There is no reason to appologize, we do it all the time. NEED has nothing to do with it.

First, as to Akley Improved cartridges. You have to remember WHEN PO Ackley was designing cases and what powders were available. He was the first person I ever read that actually wrote seriously about case capacity and experimented with case capacities and barrel lengths by actually shortening barrels one inch at a time and increaseeing case capacity incramentally. Most of what I know or think I do was learned reading Ackley.

Is there an advantage to the 257 Ackley over the 25-06?? Not really IF you are useing heavy bullets. But the 25-06 is overbore and does nothing with bullets lighter than 100 grains that you can't do with less recoil, powder, case stretching etc. At the tme the 257 AI was designed the 25-06/25 Niedner didn't even do anything better with heavy bullets!! That was because IMR 4350 and IMR 4831 didn't exist (hadn't been released to the public) and without SLOW powders over bore cases really don't do much. Many of you aren't old enough to remember that the 25-06 was still a wildcat up until the 60s.

If I was going to use a 25 caliber and hunt deer with bullets from 115/117/120 grains I'd just buy a 25-06. On the other hand I own more 257 Roberts and 257 Ackley Improved rifles than most people own guns. I like them, they work and the 257AI will drive a 115 at over 23300 fps and kills deer well.

As for the difference in shoulder angle, are you sure about 30 degrees???
The standards I'm aware of are the RCBS versions with 28 degree shoulder angles and the Ackley versions with 40 degreee shoulder angles.

Is there an atvantage of one over the other? Probably not. I load/shoot the 40 degree versions.

Ackley was the first person to say that not every Ackley Improved case was in fact an improvement and worth doing. His favorite was the 250 Savage AI. He didn't recomend the 280 Ackley Improved.

The 22-250 AI won't give you any more velocity than a 220 Swift. What it will do is give you Swift velocities without the case stretching of the 220 Swift or the parent case, the standard 22-250 that also has a lot of taper by todays standards and does stretch at high pressures and repeated fireing of top loads. So for the 22-250 AI the justification is Swift velocities, with the better and easier to find 22-250 brass and with none of the case stretching.

Ackley himself was not all that impressed with any of the 6mm Improved cases. with the advent of the factory 6mm Remington case that was essentually right on bore capacity, already was pretty straight and already had a 28 degree shoulder his attitude was, why bother. especially in a hunting rifle rather than a varmnt rifle where the the issue of case life might not be germain.

He did like some of the larger capacity cases wildcatted to 6mm for shooting the heavirest bullets in caliber. The 6mm-284 a short fat, rebated rim, sharp shouldered case will actually get you 10% velocity increase over standard but only with the heaviest bullets. That's with slow powders. I have a 77 flat bolt punched to 6-284 that has killed a truck load of deer. I also have a #1 that is a "B" with a 26" barrel made out of a 243W that pushes 90 grain varmint bullets significantly faster than the 6mm and I thought was worth the cost, time and trouble.
It hits chucks or coyotes further than you can shoot and kills antelope out as far as you should shoot.

You can't increase velociity out of either the 243 or the 6mm enough to make the conversion to Ackley Improved worth while. If you use it as a huntng rifle you can't shoot it enough in a life time to worry about the case life/stretching issue.

I remeber an article in Rifle some years back by Ken Waters. He was answering the questions of a guy that had "Improved" the 243 and done a bunch of stuff to it. When he got done he got 100 fps faster with a 90 grain Nosler. "What do you think"? Waters response was, if all you needed was 100 fps, why didn't you simply buy a 6mm Remington??

The 250 Ackley Improved actually works REALLY well and brings the case capacity right between the standard 257 Roberts and the 257 Ackley Improved. Add to the honest 10% velocity increase the lack of case stretching and the ability to use a short action and it really does make sense. Yes, I've punched a couple of rifles to 250AI over the years. My son uses a Ruger 77 MKI RL punched to 250AI for everything from caribou and under. A premium 100 grain bullet at 3000 fps really works well and the thing is accurate.

As for the 280AI, it's simply not worth the time and trouble unless you just want one. You get very little velocity increase and it's not a case that usually gets shot enough to worry about stretching.

You really need to read Acley himself rather than all the hype before making the decision of going to an AI, he'll tell you himself if he thought it worthwhile. Not every experiment is successful and Ackley was the first to admit it.

If I wre making a 35 Whelen on a Ruger action, I wouldn't. I'd just buy a 35 whelen MKI RS and shoot it. You won't have any more in it than the build, unless you are doing all the work yourself, and it would have an increased lifetime value as being somewhat rare. It's the one other rifle my son hunts with for elk, moose, bears and similar sized critters.

Ballistically there seems no reason for the build based on what you already own. Given that and the desire to build and what you are starting with I'd personally go with the 280 or the 35 Whelen. But then I'd just buy a factory 77 in either. ;-) Okay, unless I wanted something other than factory configuration.

Have fun

Ross

 

[rugerjunkie]

Thanks both Dick and Ross for the info.

Ross,

I was waiting for you to jump in! From past readings , you have probably done more rebarreling/reboring than anyone else on here and I respect your opinions as much as anyone else around. Thanks!

As for need...absolutely don't need. And as for just buying a 77...I have had 77's in the past and my preference is for the MkII's and for a true hunting rifle I also prefer them in stainless. Plus my rebarrel will give me my 24 or 26 inch barrel where most of the factory rifles are 22 inch with a few at 24. I guess the whole idea here is to build exactly what i "want" since it isn't available from the factory. Just like building that No.1 instead of waiting around for the factory to bring one out in that caliber you wait for year after year and it never hits the shelves. :lol:

Another addition will be open sights since Ruger has forgotten how to install them on rifles!! Just my attempt to make my version of a big game rifle. The stainless and laminated isn't eveyones cup of tea either. I prefer blued and walnut for looks but I don't go home when hunting and the weather gets bad.

I also have an extra scope lying around which would be a good fit for a Whelen. A 1.5-5x Weaver Grand Slam that used to be on one of my 350's. That little detail has me thinkin 35.

So...a stainless 35 Whelen , 24"(26?) barrel , open sights , green/black laminated stock , and a 1.5-5x Grand Slam scope. Sounds good to me!

Jeff

 

[picketpin]

Jeff: The Whelen is actually a tiny bit under bore capacity. If the 30-06 is bore balanced and it is then the 35 caliber cartridge on the same case by definition has to be a bit under bore.

Given that, you will gain nothing by going to a barrel over 24" long.

While I have a few stainless guns, the vast majority are blued/walnut but I live in an area where 13" of precipitation in a year is the norm as is a relative humidity of under 25%. and that's considered high around here.

While I seldom hunt with 77s any more, we did buy 3 of the MKI 35 Whelens when they came out. Ian and RG use theirs all the time for big stuff. My impression was that the 22" barrel RS (sights) ;-) was awfully light when driveing 250 grainers as fast as you can. Recoil in that light rifle is...............stout. I have a 338 #1 "S" that fits the same role for me but there is nothing wrong and a lot right about the Whelen.

Yep, some of us just won't wait 30 years for Ruger to make what they want (and Ruger should make). ;-)

the best

Ross

Oh, the standard version is plently stout and has enough shoulder to headspace. So, I would not bother to make a 35 Whelen Ackley Improve. ;-)

 

[mattsbox99]

Hey there Matt,

Thanks for that offer. We'll see where the project goes. Can you elaborate on the 30 vs 40 degree shoulders? I imagine it would matter more for feeding on the smaller calibers with a lot of shoulder vs a whelen with hardly any shoulder at all.

I honestly don't know much about the differences. I acquired the dies with the intention of doing something with the .280 if I couldn't get it to shoot as is, but I figured out a load for it and then I took it hunting and discovered how well it flattened deer and its stayed in the OEM condition.

 

[rugerjunkie]

It's looking like a 280 will be next in line Matt.

Ross,

This year a good friend from back in Wi. visited for deer season. We played around with a few different calibers but in tbe end we both took our deer with the 35's. Mine the 350RM and his in the 35 Whelen. I won't tell my load recipe , but I worked up some 180 and 200 grain loads and both were smokin pretty good. I settled on the 180's due to a bit more accuracy and the fact we were only hunting whitetails. His was loaded with factory Rem. 200's.

I took mine at about 150 yards and my buddy shot his at about 125 yards. The authority that both these rifles had was spectacular! Both of us had taken dozens of deer in the past from close to far , with pistol calibers and numerous different rifles , and we both agreed that the 35's will be used a little more often!

I don't know the exact weight of my 350 , but a 22" barreled MkII with a straight 4x scope is not that heavy. I have run some pretty stout 225 and 250 grain loads tbrough it and I wouldn't call it unpleasant to shoot when hunting , but they aren't any fun at the bench! So the Whelen shouldn't be an issue for me. Plus it will have a little heavier profile to the barrel and that will make for a whole different feel and balance.

I guess one last question for everyone is are sight sets available from Ruger? I actually like the factory sights. I'm sure there are other options out there that I should look at too.

Jeff

 

[picketpin]

Jeff: We are driveing 250 grain bullets through the 35 Whelens, as fast as we can. It makes one Hell of a 250 in yard elk rifle. I agree that one doesn't feal it out hunting. It's the bench time that'll make a guy question his sanity.

I use the 338 Win Mag as my BIG rifle. It's an older #1s and out of the 26" barrel I'm getting over 2800 fps with 250s. I've never recovered one out of the last 14 elk. At ranges of 100 or so out to 285 every one has penitrated side to side and exited.

RG, the middle brother tends to hunt them in a bit thicker stuff than I do and seldom is a shot all that long.

Have fun and keep us posted on the project.

Ross

Oh, Ruger will sell you the sights. But yoou have to buy them as parts by each individual part number and they tend to get spendy that way. I did it once and frankly while not cheap it wasn't any more exspensive than any other premium quality sight set.

 

[mattsbox99]

You won't go wrong with the .280, its a great cartridge.

I haven't collected any game with my .350RM yet, but its plenty accurate and really thumps!

 

[rugerjunkie]

You won't go wrong with the .280, its a great cartridge.

I haven't collected any game with my .350RM yet, but its plenty accurate and really thumps!

I have been shooting the 350 for a few years now. I bought 2 of them when they first came out in the MkII's. I have probably a dozen loads worked up for the 350 and half of them are just excellent in the accuracy dept.

I never hunted with it until this season. I always had others as accurate or better and just stuck to what worked for me in the past. I have 2 rifles and an XP-100 in 7mm-08 that have been putting deer in my freezer for years. This year with my buddy bringing his Whelen along got me to drag out the 350. Both 35's connected with his being a heart shot and mine was a double lunger that seperated the main artery on the way through. Those are done for no matter what you hit em with but I've not seen many other rounds put them down quite like that! It truly is a devastating round for deer. I almost took a head on shot on mine but waited a few seconds and had a broadside shot...glad I waited or things would have been real messy!

I'm going to start out with this 35 build but will have a 280 in the safe by hunting season next winter. It has been one on my list for too long now.

Jeff