Black powder lingered awhile........

[Diabloman]

I have been regaling folks on Facebook with stories of long ago. Much of my family history goes 'way back in Tennessee, and from that I've heard stories from my mother and cousins. I knew my uncle told me the first cartridge gun he ever shot was the M1903 Springfield he trained on during World War I. And another uncle carried a Colt Navy (cartridge converted or not, I never knew) while making his rounds at night on horseback. And my former hunting companion, who lived in Mississippi and hunted for the restaurants, used a cap-and-ball rifle well into the 'Thirties.

So, apparently, as long as it fired and killed game, why bother getting a new gun?

Bob Wright

Yessir Bob! My Granny shot and carried when on her horse an 1849 Pocket Pistol. .31 cap & ball. she could "shoot".....! This was up thru the 1960's. She kept it shooting and cleaned it and shot it daily. fwiw

 

[Enigma]

My uncle, the late Buford Prowell, served with the 118th Machine Gun Batallion, 30th Infantry Division during World War I and he told me the first cartridge rifle he ever shot was when he went into the Army. He met York through membership in the American Legion and was from the same part of the country. And as late as the early 'Thirties another uncle carried a Colt Navy, whether converted to cartridge or not I never knew. He went armed when making his "rounds." Had to do with sales of corn.

And my old hunting companion, who lived around Water Valley, Mississippi, used a cap-and-ball rifle on up until the beginning of World War II.

Bob Wright

I don't doubt it a bit. It was also common for people to reload smokeless powder ammunition, especially shotshells, at home up to that time frame. In the pre-smokeless powder era, it was very common for folks to load their own shotshells at home.

 

[Bob Wright]

I don't doubt it a bit. It was also common for people to reload smokeless powder ammunition, especially shotshells, at home up to that time frame. In the pre-smokeless powder era, it was very common for folks to load their own shotshells at home.

Many years ago I was shown a rusted up pair of barrels from what was once a double barreled shotgun, one barrel burst and unraveled Damascus steel. I was told the barrels were found along with some skeletal remains, apparently from a blown up shotgun. Not sure whether smokeless powder was the culprit or not.

Bob Wright

 

[larry8]

Are the BP pellets good to use?

 

[Enigma]

Are the BP pellets good to use?

They're BP substitutes, not real BP. They were developed for use in inline "muzzleloader" rifles. I don't use either (BP subs or inlines), so my knowledge is limited. Typically, I believe that a person uses either two or three of them, to provide an equivalent load of either 100 or 150 grains of powder. Either one would be a very heavy load for a traditional muzzleloader rifle.

 

[Biggfoot44]

One of the reasons BP stuck around as long as it did was the ease of reloading with BP . Today we think BP Ctg loading is tricky as far as rediscovering proper lube to deal with fouling . Back then , it was easy , as regards to charging . Fill case to base of bullet .

Smokeless required careful measuring for correct charge , within narrow ranges . And early selection of cannister powders was slim .

Eventually , " Bulk Powders " primarily for shotgun , that could be loaded by volume , reasonably close to volume of BP were popular , and bridged into modern era .


So , aprox 1920 was the tipping point to where Smokeless became " normal " , and sticking to BP was either an affectation , so specific specialized purpose , or you were really poor , with just one old gun. ( Of course with notable exceprions in both directions .)

 

[Biggfoot44]

Meanwhile , while I was typing above :

Yes pellets are BP substitutes , typically Pyrodex , sometimes 777 .

They were developed for shooters , primarily with inline rifles , who use them primarily for hunting . More convient to use in the field w/o dealing with flasks and powder measures .

Available in both 50gr and 30gr equivalents , most commonly 50 . 2 50gr is considered a standard load in .50 cal ML , 3 50gr a " magnum " load , for rifles so designed . 30gr allows fine tuning charges , to say 90gr or 120gr


Hogdon Does list a loading for a 30gr pellet in .45 Colt . , and for .44 cal C&B revolvers.

BUT , pellets are considerably more expensive than loose BP . If you only hunt with minimal sighting in , a 20 pellet box will last all season . Likewise C&B Revolver owners who just want to try them out , can buy a box of pellets , and not invest in flasks and measures .

 

[crstrode]

Sorry, pal, but I never said that - or anything remotely like it

I am interested in where you heard that Hickok was killed with a Colt SAA #2079. I have heard this to and I am trying to track down its authenticity.

Please accept my apologies. I have been unable to find my source for t he info on McCall's gun. I'm still looking . . .

 

[crstrode]

I am interested in where you heard that Hickok was killed with a Colt SAA #2079. I have heard this to and I am trying to track down its authenticity.

Here it is: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/1...l-Hickok-to-be-sold-at-auction/4086749620800/

 

[larry8]

I have a CVA Wolf and been using either 3, 30gr or 2, 50gr pellets with the standard 500 dia ball with no problems.

 

[Bob Wright]

Hickok was dead in 1876. Centerfire cartridge revolvers were uncommon at that time.

Colt's single action Army revolver was not available until late 1873. The Smith and Wesson Schofield was introduced in 1870, however it was quite rare and had a very limited production run until development of the #3 Schofield in 1875. The US Army ordered 5000 #3 Schofields in 1875.

It is thought that Hickok was indeed armed with a Smith and Wesson #2 revolver along with a Richard & Mason's cartridge conversion based upon a Colt's model of 1860 at the time of his assassination by Jack McCall.

McCall reportedly killed Hickok with a 45 revolver. It has been claimed that the gun was a single-action Colt .45 army revolver with a 7 - inch barrel, serial number 2079. If this is true, the very low serial number demonstrates it's relative rarity at that time.

Since there are lots of fakes and lots of stories about Hickok's life, and his death; provenance of guns and other artifacts is very dubious.

The Smith & Wesson No.3 revolver was introduced in 1866 chambered for the .44 S&W cartridge, which became known as the ".44 S&W American" as in 1872 the gun was available in .44 S&W Russian. Around 1871 Colt and private gunsmiths began converting 1860 Army Colts to .44 Colt centerfire. While cartrdges made by Frankford Arsenal continued to be made with copper cases, commercial ammunition used brass cases.

Bob Wright

 

[Stantheman1986]

Most average people back in the "period" of the transition from muzzleloading to cartridge, didn't shoot for recreation like we do today .

Getting nitrate paper cartridges for your cap and baller, or loose components probably involved a day long round trip into a town for some people and also, the average person wasn't interested in walking out onto some open land and shooting to kill time. Wild Bill was known to practice daily but his ammo was paid for by the town of Abilene and he was basically a professional gunslinger. 99.9999% of people were not gunslingers or lawmen.

Percussion revolvers were obsolete by the 1850's, but S&W held the Rollin White patent for the bored-through cylinder so no one else could make them. There were also plenty of cheaper Colt knockoffs and foreign imports but handguns were seen as something that wasn't a priority to many people. You needed a shotgun to protect the household and hunt, and maybe a rifle for hunting or if you were in the Militia.

I honestly just think that owning many guns and guns you didn't "need" was a game for the more well off. If our ancestors could see us now , many of us with dozens of handguns and rifles, in some cases many dozens, most of those guns being for recreational shooting .....they would probably either be amazed and think we were wealthy or being wasteful of money. Tell your ancestor who was alive in the 1870's that you spent $1000 on a new revolver, "just because" and they'd probably be mind-boggled.

Attitudes toward material objects was different back then, people didn't throw away or replace things like we do. You used a revolver or rifle until it was no longer feasible or you were rich and had a cabinet full of sporting weapons.

People also had access to more surplus back then, if you just needed "a gun" you could pick up an 1860 Army or an 1861 Springfield for pennies in the 1870s-1880s or a Krag rifle out of a barrel at the hardware store in the 1920's. It wasn't as big of a deal to pick up a beater in this period of time.

 

[buckeyeshooter]

I shoot it 2 times every weekend. SASS Pale Rider competitor. The shotgun shells are especially fun. I use cotton balls in my 3 1/2 inch 10 gauge so I can shoot 1 1/4 shot loads instead of 2 ounces. The most entertaining part is the cotton balls catching fire and shooting across the sky. I do switch to a 12 when it is really dry in the summer and there is a fire threat.

 

[Bob Wright]

Someone mentioned the transition from flint to cap lock as being rather slow.

But waterfowlers especially were quick to convert to cap lock guns. This because of the much faster "lock time" offered by the percussion cap. Made a BIG difference in wing shooting! Though pronounced, the difference between cap-and-ball lock time was not so great. But its still there it you will listen closely. I'm talkin' about the little "snap" one hears as the cap fires before the "boom" of the powder charge.

Bob Wright

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Bob,
I shoot both percussion and flintlock rifles. The flintlock with the pan loaded properly with 3F or 4F and a little tap on the side of the rifle to get powder all of the way in the flash hole will allow an almost instance discharge. I think this works better than depending on the hot gas from the pan to ignite the main charge No way near like the lock times you see in the movies.
I demonstrated this at one of our Rugerfest get togethers.
The percussion cap was very short lived about 30-40 years compared to the flint. But it did allow for the introduction of the Central Fire Cartridge.
I have never noticed the snap with the Ruger Old Armys.

Ones I built in the 70s

Maybe more for show than waterfowling.

 

[eveled]

Someone mentioned the transition from flint to cap lock as being rather slow.

But waterfowlers especially were quick to convert to cap lock guns. This because of the much faster "lock time" offered by the percussion cap. Made a BIG difference in wing shooting! Though pronounced, the difference between cap-and-ball lock time was not so great. But its still there it you will listen closely. I'm talkin' about the little "snap" one hears as the cap fires before the "boom" of the powder charge.

Bob Wright

I always wondered about shooting up at a target, the powder would be falling out of the pan.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

I always wondered about shooting up at a target, the powder would be falling out of the pan.

Look at the picture of the pan in the bottom picture. Once the frizzen is closed the powder stays in the little recessed area in the lock next to the flash hole. Hopefully the sparks from the flint will ignite the pan powder before it falls out. Remember "You are just a flash in the pan" "Now don't go off half cocked" "Remember to keep your powder dry"

 

[eveled]

No doubt the percussion cap was an improvement, but they had to be bought. I imagine there were some who didn’t want to switch to caps.

the caps were a real game changer, they made revolvers possible and were the first step towards center fire ammo.

 

[Heliman]

For a couple of years in the early 90’s I hunted the general rifle deer season with a Thompson Renegade 50 cal. I had success except for missed opportunities at longer ranges. I retired the Renegade and went with Ruger #1’s. Even then, I sometimes carried a Pietta 1851 .36 revolver for a sidearm. Not practical, but fun.

 

[Ride1949]

Love those Pietta 1851 Navy revolvers. A lot of fun. Mine's a .44 cal.