I put up a sign at the entrance of a private access road: WARNING, YOU ARE ENTERING A LIVE FIRE PRACTICE RANGE. OWNER NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR INJURIES.
I don't even have to close the gate anymore.
I don't even have to close the gate anymore.
Bit of a range rant.
- Thread starter pyth0n
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contender
Ruger Guru
Ok, there are (4) ranges you can use.
(1) You are fortunate to have that many available. Many people have a hard time just finding a place to shoot. Just think, you could NOT have ANY place to shoot.
(2) As you've mentioned,, liability issues as well as the expenses of just operating with the media & worries added to such liability.
(3) Due to IDIOTS doing stupid stuff with ammo & guns,, inspections can prevent damages to a range, AND protect the other people in the range. (Excessive reloads, squibs etc can cause issues.) And with the new regs concerning pistol braces & their popularity etc,, they may be trying to head off headaches etc.
Remember,, the ATF sends out agents to do stuff to gun shops & ranges trying to "catch" businesses doing stuff wrong. Remember,, they want to put us out of business.
(4) Many ranges are going to membership & private rules etc to help ward off the "What if's" that can pop up.
(5) What happens if you lose all (4) places due to shut downs, lawsuits, or if you just choose to quit using them? People not utilizing a business, will cause them to go out of business.
(6) Outdoor ranges have to be concerned with their neighbors too.
(7) I agree it's more fun to be "self regulated" & only have your friends & such around, but it's still a business.
(8) Holding a driver's license is a form of protection. Locally, about a month or two back, a young couple went to a local range. Rented (2) guns, went to shoot, got done, went back into the shop, then ran out the door, stealing the (2) guns. They had used a fake ID,, but were caught.
(9) Lots of ranges now have a "brass on the floor belongs to the range" rule. Not only to keep the brass as an extra income potential,, BUT,,, it also keeps Joe-Dumb-Butt from going forward of a firing line to get his brass while the range is hot. And yes,, I have seen this.
(10) Good points bobski about the loaded guns incoming. I have a "No gun handling" rule on my range, UNLESS in a safe area or under the supervision of a RO. Also, no loaded firearms on the range during a match unless under the supervision of a RO AND in a bay.
I had a gun club (they were renting my place for matches) where the club prez decided the rules didn't apply to him. He'd keep his CCW on his person, AND told a few other people they could break my handling rule in an unsafe manner. I had to eject that guy, AND he took issues with it, so I ejected the whole club. SAFETY FIRST for EVERYBODY.
Now,, why not ask for a meeting with the owner(s) of such places to find out WHY they have their rules. And you can express YOUR concerns to the owner about why you prefer to go elsewhere?
I own a range.
I built it LONG ago, with the idea that it would give me a place to shoot as well as a place to allow my friends a place to shoot. Sadly, due to thefts, damages, and liability,, I can't allow it to be "open" any longer. I do have events there, and we shoot USPSA matches there. But problems caused me to shut down my "easy access" to others.
Sadly, in todays society,, we are subjected to lawsuits over EVERYTHING. And gun owners, gun shops, gun ranges all are TARGETS for the anti-gun crowd, who want to do everything they can to force us all to go away. They can't (easily) change the Constitution, but they can make it very hard to exercise out right. We are seeing the end results of decades of attacks upon us.
Deranged psychopaths buy guns, go to ranges & practice, then go shoot up a school, or mall or church or whatever. They buy the guns legally, practice legally, then commit crimes. Yet,, a commercial gun range or a gun shop can still face huge legal bills even if they were totally in the right.
Why?
My lawyer described it in (2) simple yet powerful terms; "Negligence" and "Deliberate Indifference."
Now,, I have rules on my range, and yet, I've had to stop shooters & others for infractions & such. I've had LEO's called by neighbors. And I've had complaints by neighbors.
Just remember,, we could lose it all easily. But EDUCATE yourself by actually talking to the owners of places that have regulations as to WHY they have such rules. You may be in for a surprise.
(1) You are fortunate to have that many available. Many people have a hard time just finding a place to shoot. Just think, you could NOT have ANY place to shoot.
(2) As you've mentioned,, liability issues as well as the expenses of just operating with the media & worries added to such liability.
(3) Due to IDIOTS doing stupid stuff with ammo & guns,, inspections can prevent damages to a range, AND protect the other people in the range. (Excessive reloads, squibs etc can cause issues.) And with the new regs concerning pistol braces & their popularity etc,, they may be trying to head off headaches etc.
Remember,, the ATF sends out agents to do stuff to gun shops & ranges trying to "catch" businesses doing stuff wrong. Remember,, they want to put us out of business.
(4) Many ranges are going to membership & private rules etc to help ward off the "What if's" that can pop up.
(5) What happens if you lose all (4) places due to shut downs, lawsuits, or if you just choose to quit using them? People not utilizing a business, will cause them to go out of business.
(6) Outdoor ranges have to be concerned with their neighbors too.
(7) I agree it's more fun to be "self regulated" & only have your friends & such around, but it's still a business.
(8) Holding a driver's license is a form of protection. Locally, about a month or two back, a young couple went to a local range. Rented (2) guns, went to shoot, got done, went back into the shop, then ran out the door, stealing the (2) guns. They had used a fake ID,, but were caught.
(9) Lots of ranges now have a "brass on the floor belongs to the range" rule. Not only to keep the brass as an extra income potential,, BUT,,, it also keeps Joe-Dumb-Butt from going forward of a firing line to get his brass while the range is hot. And yes,, I have seen this.
(10) Good points bobski about the loaded guns incoming. I have a "No gun handling" rule on my range, UNLESS in a safe area or under the supervision of a RO. Also, no loaded firearms on the range during a match unless under the supervision of a RO AND in a bay.
I had a gun club (they were renting my place for matches) where the club prez decided the rules didn't apply to him. He'd keep his CCW on his person, AND told a few other people they could break my handling rule in an unsafe manner. I had to eject that guy, AND he took issues with it, so I ejected the whole club. SAFETY FIRST for EVERYBODY.
Now,, why not ask for a meeting with the owner(s) of such places to find out WHY they have their rules. And you can express YOUR concerns to the owner about why you prefer to go elsewhere?
I own a range.
I built it LONG ago, with the idea that it would give me a place to shoot as well as a place to allow my friends a place to shoot. Sadly, due to thefts, damages, and liability,, I can't allow it to be "open" any longer. I do have events there, and we shoot USPSA matches there. But problems caused me to shut down my "easy access" to others.
Sadly, in todays society,, we are subjected to lawsuits over EVERYTHING. And gun owners, gun shops, gun ranges all are TARGETS for the anti-gun crowd, who want to do everything they can to force us all to go away. They can't (easily) change the Constitution, but they can make it very hard to exercise out right. We are seeing the end results of decades of attacks upon us.
Deranged psychopaths buy guns, go to ranges & practice, then go shoot up a school, or mall or church or whatever. They buy the guns legally, practice legally, then commit crimes. Yet,, a commercial gun range or a gun shop can still face huge legal bills even if they were totally in the right.
Why?
My lawyer described it in (2) simple yet powerful terms; "Negligence" and "Deliberate Indifference."
Now,, I have rules on my range, and yet, I've had to stop shooters & others for infractions & such. I've had LEO's called by neighbors. And I've had complaints by neighbors.
Just remember,, we could lose it all easily. But EDUCATE yourself by actually talking to the owners of places that have regulations as to WHY they have such rules. You may be in for a surprise.
Luckily enough for me, I live in the country and step out onto my back deck and I have 800yds to the woods across open farmers field with targets set up at multiple intervals for a wide range of distances. Have never been to a shooting range and am not anticipating doing so any time soon. I allow a select few people to shot at my house and they were determined by their gun etiquette and respect for neighbors.
I shoot on my own range and I'm a member at a club I've paid dues to for 3 years now and never shot there. And I live "in the woods".
I'd say most of these rules people don't like are the direct result of things people who don't like the rules have done. I make this guess based on what I see them doing "in the woods, just shooting at cans". They talk a game on gun boards when they are on their own "in the woods" they shoot like the 10 year olds watching the Lone Ranger shooting in every direction and shooting up every tree in site. They leave the place where ever they go covered in trash and junk. Some how "a few cans" turn in the soda bottles, old computers and TVs.
I'd say most of these rules people don't like are the direct result of things people who don't like the rules have done. I make this guess based on what I see them doing "in the woods, just shooting at cans". They talk a game on gun boards when they are on their own "in the woods" they shoot like the 10 year olds watching the Lone Ranger shooting in every direction and shooting up every tree in site. They leave the place where ever they go covered in trash and junk. Some how "a few cans" turn in the soda bottles, old computers and TVs.
I used to live in Central Oregon and there were places to shoot within a 20 minutes drive. Now in Southern Oregon, I can shoot on my own property, but I don't as I feel the neighbors are too close. (5 acre parcels). There is a small box canyon about 5 minutes or less up the road. It works, but… I guess I got spoiled. I have 4 steel silhouettes with stands that are HEAVY! I used to keep the whole mess in the back of my truck. Drive out, set up the targets, drive back, set up a table and chair, maybe even a shade canopy. And make a day out of it. Not anymore. The box canyon has a 20 yard steep uphill hike, carrying the range bag is plenty. No way I could drag a silhouette up there. Im actively searching for another spot. There are 2 outdoor ranges and one indoor gun club range within 45 minutes- but I prefer steel over paper.
Yep, that looks like the kind of place people used to HUNT. Then they start "sighting in there", next they tell a few friends and the trees start to disappear and the trash and junk show up. Then it turns in to an eroded dump "to far up hill" to walk to any more.
Funny how these people who don't like the rules never turn their own back yard in to a -- hole like that.
Funny how these people who don't like the rules never turn their own back yard in to a -- hole like that.
It really angers me that not only are the people who abuse the privilege of being able to shoot on public lands trashing nature and making it an eyesore, but their disregard and disrespect make shooters look bad as a whole and lead to increasing regulations and shooting area closures. I'll grab some trash whenever I go- but it's a losing battle. One of the reasons I like shooting steel is that there's no junk left behind.
On a positive note- it seems there aren't many people who reload that visit here. I come away with gobs of 9mm and .40 brass on every trip.
WV460hunter
Single-Sixer
That is truly ridiculous
I've run ranges both indoor & out door. Sponsored league & open events. I kept rules to a minimum. Unless it was a match that had equipment requirements I didn't have to inspect all guns or ammo. If someone committed an infraction, then that person was dealt with, not all others. You do your job as a range officer. I've had LEO's called by neighbors & I've had complaints by neighbors also. All baseless. (LEO's were getting annoyed by the calls.)
So I'm EDUCATED with why folks feel the need to make up 15 page long what if legaleze rules, and claim it's for my own good.
mexicanjoe
Single-Sixer
used to work on a 64,000 acre ranch loaded with coyotes and caliche pits to shoot in. The ranch provided ammo that was consider" varmint control". One pit was 1.2 miles long and we used it to shoot rifles in. Wished I still lived there.
contender
Ruger Guru
pyth0n,
I read what you wrote about working on ranges etc. That's different from owning one and having to look hard at the liability issues.
Look at the USPSA rules. Lots of rules because of people who have done things that require a specific rule to prevent them from doing things that may be unsafe or dangerous. Trust me when I say that I wish we didn't have to have so many rules. But as I said, talk to the owners about the rules and why they have them.
Most likely due to a FEW people who don't have respect for them and could have created a liability concern.
I'm sure that you are most likely the kind of person that we welcome to our range. But as I mentioned above, it's the few that cost us the most.
I do hope you didn't take my post as an affront to you, as I was not. I just wanted to point out some things that you and others may not think about or understand.
NO OFFENSE meant towards you.
I read what you wrote about working on ranges etc. That's different from owning one and having to look hard at the liability issues.
Look at the USPSA rules. Lots of rules because of people who have done things that require a specific rule to prevent them from doing things that may be unsafe or dangerous. Trust me when I say that I wish we didn't have to have so many rules. But as I said, talk to the owners about the rules and why they have them.
Most likely due to a FEW people who don't have respect for them and could have created a liability concern.
I'm sure that you are most likely the kind of person that we welcome to our range. But as I mentioned above, it's the few that cost us the most.
I do hope you didn't take my post as an affront to you, as I was not. I just wanted to point out some things that you and others may not think about or understand.
NO OFFENSE meant towards you.
There is one indoor range about 15 minutes from me that is small but well run. 25 yards is the max range through. About 25 minutes away there is a State run outdoor range way back in the woods. It has an eight point 25 yard pistol range, a 100 yard rifle range (don't remember how many points there) and a shotgun area. Across the road from there is an archery range. I have used both the pstol and rifle range. The best time to go is during mid-week. Few, if any, others there and never a 'range Rambo', unlike weekends. Seldom a RSO there during the week but always there on weekends. Required to police your spent cartridges prior to leaving.
contender
Ruger Guru
Apparently,, I have offended pyth0n,, and I want to publicly apologize to him.
People don't understand the responsibility for every round fired.
contender
Ruger Guru
It can go a lot further than just a round fired & not properly captured within a range.
Just look at the many stupid things posted on you-boob by people. And NOT just gun stuff. You often see injuries due to their stupidity. Yet,, they still find a reason to sue somebody,, not wanting to admit they were doing stupid or unsafe stuff.
Worse than that,, if a person is killed, they can't sue,, but the FAMILY will often do so.
Cameras, release forms, rules & such can help,, but still may not be enough.
Sadly,, and I said this before; "It's the FEW idiots that cause the greater "GOOD" gun owners to suffer their stupidity. And lawyers are ALWAYS looking for people to sue & line their pockets.
It's the modern, American way,, make someone else pay for your stupidity.
Just look at the many stupid things posted on you-boob by people. And NOT just gun stuff. You often see injuries due to their stupidity. Yet,, they still find a reason to sue somebody,, not wanting to admit they were doing stupid or unsafe stuff.
Worse than that,, if a person is killed, they can't sue,, but the FAMILY will often do so.
Cameras, release forms, rules & such can help,, but still may not be enough.
Sadly,, and I said this before; "It's the FEW idiots that cause the greater "GOOD" gun owners to suffer their stupidity. And lawyers are ALWAYS looking for people to sue & line their pockets.
It's the modern, American way,, make someone else pay for your stupidity.
I can't see anything written that should cause offense by anyone else.
One thing not mentioned here is that some ranges I have shot at, people have committed suicide. One place was back in Washington state and another was here in Dallas. Not while I was there, of course, it was explained to me they have all these rules because this has happened before.
Although I suppose it would be hard to create a rule to prevent someone from doing such things.
One thing not mentioned here is that some ranges I have shot at, people have committed suicide. One place was back in Washington state and another was here in Dallas. Not while I was there, of course, it was explained to me they have all these rules because this has happened before.
Although I suppose it would be hard to create a rule to prevent someone from doing such things.
That evidently happens a lot. I was at a facility that included a range hosting our FONRA banquet/auction when a retired police officer ended it on the range. You just never know what could happen walking down the street much less when you throw firearms into the mix. The worst part was that it was a private club and many of the members knew him. They could never see the range the same again.
Where I live in Central Utah, I am 4 miles from a self policing free range owned by the town. People are expected to handle any firearms safely and clean up any mess they may make. During the week when I generally shoot, I am the only one there. If for some reason there was a crowd at the range, I could just drive down the road a bit and shoot on BLM land of which there are many thousand acres in this area.
I have an indoor and outdoor that I have memberships at. Outdoor range doesn't allow tracers and requires slugs for shotguns. Shotguns must also have front & rear sights or be scoped. Also, no rapid fire.
Indoor range has steel core restriction on ammo and no 17HMR or 5.7(bummer can't shoot my LC carbine there). Only buckshot for shotguns. Only center fire rifle ammo allowed is 30 carbine.
A new indoor range opened up 10 minutes from me. Only restriction on ammo is steel core. Nice but pricey. Advantage is that you can shoot anything at 25 yard range. Only one with a 100 yard target set up but even with a standard membership have to pay extra to use it. Shotguns (slugs only) have to be shot at 100 yard range.
Set up an air gun/.22 target in my garage during the pandemic. Could extend shooting from my driveway but figured that would spook the neighbors.
Indoor range has steel core restriction on ammo and no 17HMR or 5.7(bummer can't shoot my LC carbine there). Only buckshot for shotguns. Only center fire rifle ammo allowed is 30 carbine.
A new indoor range opened up 10 minutes from me. Only restriction on ammo is steel core. Nice but pricey. Advantage is that you can shoot anything at 25 yard range. Only one with a 100 yard target set up but even with a standard membership have to pay extra to use it. Shotguns (slugs only) have to be shot at 100 yard range.
Set up an air gun/.22 target in my garage during the pandemic. Could extend shooting from my driveway but figured that would spook the neighbors.
contender
Ruger Guru
By the many comments here,, it's easy to see that the people who live in places that are more "gun friendly" have many options to enjoy our shooting sports. BLM land, state ranges, often un-manned & self policed etc.
But at the same time,, I see posts where some restrictions (often self imposed,) have crept into things,, such as not shooting,, even when legal & allowed, due to nearby neighbors.
Then there are the more urban places,, where a commercial gun range is located. This is often where regulations or rules dictate shooter activity.
I know of local gun club ranges where there are various restrictions. Such as; "No drawing from a holster & shooting," "No reloads," "No brass recovery," "No tracers, steel core, or AP ammo," etc.
Usually it's done to protect the range from damage, and especially looking at "SAFETY" as a primary concern.
Throw in the suicide angle, as well as the many different things shown in other posts,, it's often a wonder we have ANY commercial gun ranges available.
It all goes back to what we gun owners have witnessed over the decades.
Slow but deliberate re-education of the public against guns, all while removing gun safety in schools, and especially at home.
In homes where guns are around, used, taught, and are a "normal" item,, fewer problems exist.
Heck, just yesterday,, I went to a customer's house. She is a 2nd grade teacher. And we were discussing how the kids had NEVER had any kind of "nature" exposure,, until they took the kids on a 1 day field trip to a mature park & did a walk through. Now, take those same kids,, and realize the only exposure to firearms,,, is TV, Video games & the schools. Gun safety & especially RESPECT for the potential dangers is NOT taught.
Commercial gun ranges have to deal with this kind of mentality daily.
Sad but true.
But at the same time,, I see posts where some restrictions (often self imposed,) have crept into things,, such as not shooting,, even when legal & allowed, due to nearby neighbors.
Then there are the more urban places,, where a commercial gun range is located. This is often where regulations or rules dictate shooter activity.
I know of local gun club ranges where there are various restrictions. Such as; "No drawing from a holster & shooting," "No reloads," "No brass recovery," "No tracers, steel core, or AP ammo," etc.
Usually it's done to protect the range from damage, and especially looking at "SAFETY" as a primary concern.
Throw in the suicide angle, as well as the many different things shown in other posts,, it's often a wonder we have ANY commercial gun ranges available.
It all goes back to what we gun owners have witnessed over the decades.
Slow but deliberate re-education of the public against guns, all while removing gun safety in schools, and especially at home.
In homes where guns are around, used, taught, and are a "normal" item,, fewer problems exist.
Heck, just yesterday,, I went to a customer's house. She is a 2nd grade teacher. And we were discussing how the kids had NEVER had any kind of "nature" exposure,, until they took the kids on a 1 day field trip to a mature park & did a walk through. Now, take those same kids,, and realize the only exposure to firearms,,, is TV, Video games & the schools. Gun safety & especially RESPECT for the potential dangers is NOT taught.
Commercial gun ranges have to deal with this kind of mentality daily.
Sad but true.
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