Bear protection advice needed

[Anonymous]

Like most people I have not shot a bear in self defense.

However, if you think about it, you will realize that a Grizzly bear is a very large animal with heavy bones and muscle that has to be penetrated to get to the vitals.

With that in mind, a handgun, if one is going to have to depend on a handgun, should be of the heaviest caliber that the shooter can handle. That suggests a .44 Mg, for most people.

Now the bullets should be heavy, even heavy for the caliber, to provide the sectional density needed for maximun penetration. To me, this suggests bullets of 275 to 300 grains and hard cast.

That is what I would be carrying and I would also be hoping that I didn't meet any bears. 8)

 

[annasophia]

One more question I forgot to ask: I heard that the law regarding carrying a handgun in national parks was recently changed. I know that most of the talk was regarding concealed carry (which I believe is now allowed in the NP's)...but what about open carry of a handgun? Does anyone know the real up-to-date facts on this? Thanks for all the help with my dilemmas!

--Anna Sophia

 

[EarlFH]

Use what the Rangers use. A 12 ga., and bear spray. I'd say they probably know what they're doing.

EarlFH

 

[BearBio]

I do have an older 870 Wingmaster pump 12 gauge that I was considering turning into a home protection type set-up. I got it cheap at an auction a few years ago....some dope hack-sawed the last few inches off the barrel so there's no choke (just a straight pipe with a vented rib). I thought about getting a new barrel for it, but they want something like $250+ for a replacement, which is probably close to what the gun is worth in the first place. I really don't think I'll ever hike much with it on me (just simply too heavy and bulky!)...but it does sound nice to have in the car when just car-camping. How would a sawed off barrel with no choke work with slugs or heavy buckshot? Would it really need a new barrel or screw-in choke to hit the broad side of a barn....or bear?...or would it be fine as is? I patterned once it along side another shotgun with a fixed modified choke on a big piece of paper with No. 7 1/2 shot right after I got it and it was a pretty large spread at 30 yards.....probably about twice as large as the mod choked gun.

Today I called all around and there's no place near me that even has so much as one box of .44mag ammo in stock that's not lighter weight hollow points. I'm heading out on a week-long camping/hiking trip around the Idaho/Montana boarder and Glacier NP this next week and need to get something quick. If I can't find anything, I might be stuck with just the bear spray and a .357.

Any thoughts on the sawed off barrel? If I were to use it as a cut with no choke tube...would I be better off cutting it a bit shorter (it's now about 26") for the sake of ease of use in a quick situation and in possible tight cover?

--Anna Sophia

That'll do. The Brennekes are made for smooth tubes. From the way you talk, I expect you're in Washington somewhere. If you're in Tri Cities, the old Sportsmen's wharehouse should have them, ditto for Spokane. If near Seattle, try Kesselring's. GI Joe's (or is it Joes, now?) or Sportco off I-5 in Fife. Or Cabela's in Lacey. If you can't get any and you're coming through Wenatchee, Let me know and I'll dig you out a box. If you're in Idaho, try Cabela's in Boise or in Post Falls, near Spokane.

ps: Keep your wits around you. Situational Awareness is what the called in in security training and in the Army.

 

[rugerguy]

yes, if you have an 870 12 ga, then by alll means take it along, keep it in the car...again, it is still a matter of situation, what you are doing and where you are going, you are NOT about to be "hiking" carrying around all that BIG stuff ( rifles & shotguns), after all you are going hiking, or it may be fishing, whatever, it's NOT hunting..same thing when one carries for personal defense, some folks think they are going into combat,,,(though around here, "back east" I wonder at times), I felt a LOT safer in Yellowstone, or in the hills between Billings and Great Falls, or on any of our canoe trips through Algonquin National Park up in Canada, or along the Moosenee River in Quebec...than on any given city street ,after dark in ANY of the big cities "east of St Louis, to the Atlantic coast...at least the bears may be "hungry" , cannot answer for the alternative ......... :roll:
Oh, and my "closest" encounter??? bear at night ,1964 in Val D'Or ,Que, came into camp in the middle of the night, and my Uncle Bill growled , quite softly , like a dog, and the bear took off.....never saw 'it', but the tracks in the morning..............His ONLY encounter where he had to fire, was with a moose, he got treed, between him ( on shore) and his rifle,an old marlin 30-30 leaning against a tree , next to the moose.....back then he carried a WWII relic, a german P-38 he had brought home, and he emptied it into the moose below him, and the moose went off almost a half mile before it dropped dead...he always carried a 357 mag(old Colt, pre Python) after that, mainly cause it was light??, easy to carry , and he was GOOD with it and felt "comfortable"............Oh, and the Game Warden there carried a .38 special,along with his Win 30-30.................no grizzlies there, black bears, wolves and half French,half Indians..............loved their whiskey .....

Anyway no problem with the 870 as to barrel length,anywhere in the 22-26 inch range ,easy to manuever, cut it off, back to the next rib 'post' and install a bead,just a "reference" ...................slugs or buckshot will work just fine..............
by the way no reference was made as to your size....easy for some of us BIG palookas to be toting ,handling and firing some BIG BORE hand cannon, if you are unable to.....my wife is only 4-11 but handled a 20 ga Ithaca pump, better than many "guys" .............

 

[427mach1]

but what about open carry of a handgun? Does anyone know the real up-to-date facts on this?

From the national park website:

Firearms
As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in this park.

It is the responsibility of visitors to understand and comply with all applicable state, local, and federal firearms laws before entering this park.

In other words, the firearm regulations in a particular national park follow those of the state that the national park is in. The same holds true for national forest land.

 

[akbluz]

annasophia,
I spend a little time in 'Alaska bear country' and think that since you have the 12ga already, that's the least I would want to have if things got ugly. (A fellow I knew put three .458WinMag rounds into a large boar grizzly before it died). I understand that our Dept of Fish & Game uses 12 gauges with slugs alternating with buckshot. Black bears may try to eat you but grizzlies may tend to just maul you severely. Remember you are not at the top of the food chain in bear country.
akbluz

 

[JBL13]

One more question I forgot to ask: I heard that the law regarding carrying a handgun in national parks was recently changed. I know that most of the talk was regarding concealed carry (which I believe is now allowed in the NP's)...but what about open carry of a handgun? Does anyone know the real up-to-date facts on this? Thanks for all the help with my dilemmas!

--Anna Sophia

As has been stated, the legality of carrying openly depends on the laws of the state you're in.

That being said, I will likely not carry openly in Yellowstone or other national parks, since foreign tourists or even American tourists from some liberal enclave might freak out and report me, thinking I'm a nut job or doing something illegal, which could result in a confrontation with park rangers until things get sorted out.

On a related note, my wife and I go to Yellowstone almost yearly. I've carried bear spray there for many years, but I specifically bought a new 4" Redhawk .44 Magnum a couple of years ago for carrying concealed on these trips when it started looking like the relevant laws would change for national parks. I will probably carry my XD-45 Compact loaded with FMJ as a back-up, or maybe one of my GP100s stoked with heavy Buffalo Bore rounds, but I will still have my bear spray. I wouldn't mind toting my defense-spec Remington 870 w/slugs, but I figure I'd rather not end up having a chat with park rangers about that.

 

[cottonstalk]

You've recieved great advice so there's nothing I can add,but it is funny the heaviest blackies are in the east.

 

[deac45]

...I use a short barreled .357 Blackhawk a quite a bit so I'm experienced enough with a Ruger single action to not always be fumbling all over the place during a reload...Anna Sophia

I vote for the 44. If you are confident enough of your gun handling skills with the 357, the 44 operates the same way. All you need is more range time with the 44 to get better aquainted with its recoil and such.

deac45

 

[s4s4u]

Any thoughts on the sawed off barrel? If I were to use it as a cut with no choke tube...would I be better off cutting it a bit shorter (it's now about 26") for the sake of ease of use in a quick situation and in possible tight cover?

Being it has already been chopped, you may as well as chop it some more. Just don't go less than 18". A cylinder (no choke) bore is perfect for defense distances of 5 to 15 yards. Load it with big buck or slugs and keep it at ready.

 

[gramps]

I spent 13 weeks in Kotzebue, Alaska this year. The National Park service there issued 12 gauge's. 1st shot buckshot then all slugs. I walked the Tundra carrying my Redhawk .44 mag with 310 gr over 13 grs 2400. Kept my head on a swivel(just like being in hell's kitchen, NYC). Never saw a bear, but did see where the bear had tried ripping open the metal water main that came from Devils lake to kotz. Situational awareness will keep you from harms way most of the time.
gramps

 

[annasophia]

Thanks for all the info, it's been very helpful in many ways! I think I've decided to bring the 12 ga to keep in the car and load with buckshot with a couple slugs as the last rounds to come out for in case a charger was up in my face after the first few blows. I will also hopefully find some decent .44 ammo by Thursday....if not, I'll likely be hiking with my .357 this trip until I can get some good stuff to start hand loading for the .44.

I too thought it was interesting that the black bear weights people talk about seem to sound heavier in the east than here in the west....maybe they fatten up from trash cans and pets. Only joking!

Thanks again!

 

[contender]

Well,, I guess ALL of us 'easterners" are ignorant. None of us ever spend any time in the west or Alaska where the griz roams. Gee,,, maybe I'm not qualified to answer this either. (My profession is Nuisance Wildlife Control.)
All that said,, there is some good advice above. The 12 ga is an excellent SD firearm if you can have it handy & usable. Pepper spray is also being used a lot and working for the most part if everything goes "right." Griz's are rougher on people than blacks in general,, due to the methods they use when they attack. Mauling to us could be considered a simple swat by the griz. If it gets physical with ANY bear,, it can be bad,, so you want the biggest,, hardest hitting caliber you can comfortably carry,,, access immediately,, and hit what you are aiming at while under stress.
Yes,, blacks can be a bigger problem to people than the dreaded griz,, but you need to be prepared for either one.
PREVENTION is the BEST bear deterrent I know of. Noise while walking,, be aware of your surroundings at all times,, and especially in thick areas,,and while camping,, SMELLABLE discipline is of the most extreme importance. Hang ALL smellable items in a bear bag well away from the camp.
Another excellent preventive measure,, hike with a good dog. They will let you know about critters well before you see them.

Good luck on getting some proper ammo for the 44 mag. Have a safe trip.

 

[EarlFH]

For what it's worth, there is a well known grizzly hunter, and his daughter who have been hunting Alaska fo many years. He says he's tried all of, the really big bore handguns, for back up, and has settled on a S&W 686, loaded with maximum 180 grain solid loads. Says he can get off more accurate follow-up shots with it, than the dinosour killers that a lot of people carry, because it's not that easy to be accurate with the first shot, when you have a sudden adrenolin dump in your system. He aims for the hump behind the head, when they charge with their head down, hitting them in the spine. Apparently he's put down a few that way.
Of course, this guy has been doing it for years, and really knows what he is doing. I would personally want a 50 cal. Browning M2, and be shooting from a helicopter!!! :shock:

EaqrlFH

 

[dlh38or45]

Annasophia,

I would definately take the 44 along on your trip. On your way through the panhandle of Idaho or in Montana, you probably will be able to find some appropriate 44 mag ammo and some empty area to sight it in. Another option is to find a Lee Loader --a small hand loader kit which you can use to make handloads or reloads for your 44 Mag.

I am not sure if this has been definatively stated...are you camping in the back country or out of your car and just hiking, then returning to your vehicle?

DLH

 

[Stiofan]

If you drive through Post Falls stop at Cabelas. They carry .44 mag Buffalo Bore hardcast. I use the same but in .41 mag. For me it's my first choice when fishing outside Coeur D Alene, but if I tent camp it's a back up as I have my .45-70 in the tent with me at night. Over in Montana or Wyoming my first choice is bear spray with the .41 mag also on my hip.

My friend saw a Griz take down a bull elk up on the North Fork CDA river a few years ago, they are up here but not like east and north of us. But after that we all upgraded from our .357s.

 

[Longlosthiker]

I ran into this one on the Tanawha trail in NC last month. It didn't much appreciate me eating its blueberries! It huffed for a few seconds but I backed away slowly and all was well. The scariest part was the trail looped back around and downhill from the bear with tall, dense rhodo right up against the trail on either side. I clapped my hands loudly and shouted 'Yo Bear' all the way down.

 

[flatgate]

A 12 gauge is the tool of choice, followed by a LARGE BORE revolver.

Lightweight "carry" guns are for the cities, IMHO. Nobody around here messes with .357's/9mm's/ etc. for woods carry.

Bear Spray is essential.

Just my Nickle's worth......

flatgate

 

[Anonymous]

Not trying to promote the hand gun as a bear gun, but one caliber I have not seen fronted in this discussion is the old .45 Long Colt.

I happen to have a Redhawk in this caliber with a 4" barrel and it is possible to get the 255 grainers in hard cast, up to 1200 fps with this gun.

It is a little heavy at 51 oz loaded, but it carrys not so bad and the grips that came on it handle recoil quite well.

A 4" or a 5-1/2" Redhawk in 44 Mg or 45 Colt is about as good as you are gonna get in a handgun in bear country. Any caliber bigger would be better still.......IF you can handle it.

Also, I think it would be smart to hike in pairs in big bear country, and both parties should be armed and able to shoot well under pressure. 8)