Ar 15 pistol brace

[Kevin]

One project I have that's half way on hold is an AR15 9mm lower. I bought it and a regular AR15 lower last summer. I would like to put together an AR15 9mm pistol. Actually what I would really like is a short barreled rifle. I see you only have to pay the $200 and stand in line. Is that correct? There's a gun range here in town that does that sort of paperwork. Perhaps I'll stop by and talk with them.

The other day at the range, there was a police officer doing some practice. He came over to where I was shooting to try out one of those "Micro-Roni" pistol carbine conversion frames. www.micro-roni.com Basically, it's a frame that you put your pistol into and it makes a larger pistol. And saying that outloud sounds really backwards.

I'd never seen one before and didn't know what it was. At first glance it looks like an AR15 pistol, or perhaps a short barreled rifle. Pretty cool really. But he and I got to talking about the AR15 pistol braces. I asked him if they are legal. He said as far as he knows they are. It was funny, he didn't say legal, he said "not unlawful." I just thought it was a funny way to phrase it.

I guess I was thinking of bump stocks and not pistol braces.

Anyway, no real point to this post, just sort of thinking outloud. Those lowers sitting in the back of my closet keep calling my name.

But any thoughts on an AR15 pistol with brace, vs SBR? Would it be better to get the tax stamp for the rifle? Just to avoid any mis-interpretation by some over zealous police?

Ok, here's another question. Do you have to buy the rifle and tax stamp at the same time, or buy the stamp, then go shopping for the rifle? Does anyone know?

 

[Hankus]

One project I have that's half way on hold is an AR15 9mm lower. I bought it and a regular AR15 lower last summer. I would like to put together an AR15 9mm pistol. Actually what I would really like is a short barreled rifle. I see you only have to pay the $200 and stand in line. Is that correct? There's a gun range here in town that does that sort of paperwork. Perhaps I'll stop by and talk with them.

The other day at the range, there was a police officer doing some practice. He came over to where I was shooting to try out one of those "Micro-Roni" pistol carbine conversion frames. www.micro-roni.com Basically, it's a frame that you put your pistol into and it makes a larger pistol. And saying that outloud sounds really backwards.

I'd never seen one before and didn't know what it was. At first glance it looks like an AR15 pistol, or perhaps a short barreled rifle. Pretty cool really. But he and I got to talking about the AR15 pistol braces. I asked him if they are legal. He said as far as he knows they are. It was funny, he didn't say legal, he said "not unlawful." I just thought it was a funny way to phrase it.

I guess I was thinking of bump stocks and not pistol braces.

Anyway, no real point to this post, just sort of thinking outloud. Those lowers sitting in the back of my closet keep calling my name.

But any thoughts on an AR15 pistol with brace, vs SBR? Would it be better to get the tax stamp for the rifle? Just to avoid any mis-interpretation by some over zealous police?

Ok, here's another question. Do you have to buy the rifle and tax stamp at the same time, or buy the stamp, then go shopping for the rifle? Does anyone know?

You have to have the stamp before your dealer can release the SBR to you.

 

[Kevin]

You have to have the stamp before your dealer can release the SBR to you.

Thanks, and Yes, that makes sense.

But I was curious if you get the stamp from one dealer, then take that stamp to another dealer where they sell sbr’s.

-OR-

do you pay for everything all at once, then when the stamp comes back the dealer releases the rifle.

 

[blume357]

Back in 2011 I wanted a suppressor for my 10/22's and I have to buy it before I applied and paid for the stamp... after filling out and sending in all the stuff for the stamp including the $200 I was denied... I re-applied showing my 'criminal conviction' back in 1978 was a misdemeanor and was denied again... the BATFE investigators sent it all to their legal department.... where it apparently sits ... because even though BATFE has to have a legal appeal department according to some law they are not required to actually fund that department....

I think you are actually better off building your own AR pistol with a brace and then hoping the latest dictate from BATFE will be cancelled out.....

It is not that hard to put a longer barrel on the upper and be legal until this is all fixed.

 

[contender]

I would suggest you go to a gun shop that actually handles a lot of that kind of firearm, and get the latest, most up to date legal information you can. There is a bit of confusion going on right now about such stuff.

Personally, I feel the .223/5.56 round is not up to it's potential in very short barrels. In pistol calibers,, such as .9mm yes, fun to enjoy.

 

[T.A. WORKMAN]

Contender is spot on with his advice.
The only difference between a SBR and a pistol are the lowers, which you already know.
Best,
Terry

 

[Kevin]

Thanks, this is all good info.

I will go to the gun shop. They just expanded and advertise that they do this sort of stuff, suppressors etc.

I’ll post here what I find out.

 

[arfmel]

If I was considering a SBR or a pistol AR, I’d want it in 9mm. The 5.56/.223 loses a lot of velocity in a short barrel, and is noisy as heck.

JMHO, YMMV as they say.

 

[NikA]

The worst part of the paperwork if you do it yourself is the fingerprints, which have to be submitted in paper form with a reference document or in a special electronic format. I don't know of any vendors willing to provide the file in the electronic format to the customer.

I think Silencer Shop currently sells Form 1 services for 35$, which is a good deal if you've never dealt with this type of paperwork before and don't want the frustration of multiple iterations.

IMO, ballistics say 11ish inches is the shortest .223/5.56 barrel that makes sense. That number is different for different cartridges; .300 BO and 7.62x39 are two examples that still work well with shorter.

I would not bother with the braced pistol approach until the current legal status questions are resolved. That applies both to AR pistols and Micro-Roni type attachments.

Incidentally, if you want to drop a good bit of money on the latest and greatest, I'd look at the CMMG Dissent, which I understand just came out with a delayed blowback 9mm version.

 

[NikA]

The tax stamp is evidence of tax paid on a particular item, so whatever you are going to acquire/build must be decided when you apply for the stamp. That said, once stamped some configuration changes are allowed, e.g., addition of uppers in other calibers, shortening a silencer tube, etc. ATF website provides some details on what is and is not allowed in the current rule structure.

 

[Mobuck]

'. I see you only have to pay the $200 and stand in line. Is that correct? '
Generally, yes. Since you can legally change a pistol into a rifle(or SBR), theoretically, you can have your 9mm AR pistol to play with until your stamp arrives at which time, you change the buffer tube and add the carbine stock. I'd been seriously considering stamping a lower as SBR just for the heck of it but this whole register your pistol brace muck up has caused a lot of hassle and lengthened waiting time.
Much of this SBR/braced pistol thing is made far more technical than required.

 

[blume357]

I went in a slightly different direction with this a few years ago... I bought a pistol from TNW firearms in Oregon... this was chambered for 357 sig and can easily be converted to 9mm with a barrel and bolt which I also bought. I also have a longer barrel in both calibers and have right now one of the the longer barrels on it. Nice thing is the barrel change from long to short takes less than 30 seconds.

 

[Mobuck]

Another consideration one should be aware of is the 'any other weapon' category which can send one down a different (but equally frustrating and illegal) path.
This entire rifle/pistol/SBR jungle can ensnare one in a prickly bed of thorns if the wrong individual gets involved.

 

[SWR]

Everyone should be watching and following the You Tube channel Guns and Gadgets for all the latest up to date 2nd Amendment news. Clear info on the current pistol brace fiasco, a video posted 2 days ago on it

 

[Kevin]

I honestly had no idea this whole thing was filled with so many unknowns and “quasi-legalities.” I think I might just stuff the 9mm lower I have back in the closet and leave it for a while.

What a can of worms!

Blume: I like gun you pictured. What brand is it? And is that an ejection port on the left side?

 

[outlaw_dogboy]

Contender is spot on with his advice.
The only difference between a SBR and a pistol are the lowers, which you already know.
Best,
Terry

Technically, the only difference between a pistol and an SBR isn't even the lower, or even the buffer tube. It is literally what you attach to the buffer tube.
Except you can never turn a lower that was serialized as a rifle into a pistol. You can, however, turn a lower serialized as a pistol into a rifle, and reverse it back to pistol.
YEs it is a bunch of BS.
At this point in time, the way it was drafted (the new ruling), if you have a "pistol" with a brace, you can either leave it as is and register is as an SBR, or you can take the brace off, destroy it, and keep the pistol as is.
With the late model SBA3 and SBA4 braces, which fit mil-spec buffer tubes, you could literally just pull the plastic brace off, destroy it, and you're fine.
Take that same lower, put a 16" barreled upper on it, fit a mil-spec butt stock to it, and you also fine. It literally is the plastic on the end of the buffer tube that defines the legality.
Standard caveats apply: I'm not a lawyer, ymmv, yada, yada, yada, etc. But I did look at the specific ruling when it was released for public comment (months ago).

I would not bother with the braced pistol approach until the current legal status questions are resolved. That applies both to AR pistols and Micro-Roni type attachments.

Incidentally, if you want to drop a good bit of money on the latest and greatest, I'd look at the CMMG Dissent, which I understand just came out with a delayed blowback 9mm version.

I would agree regarding braced pistol right now. But, if you're wanting to build out your lower as a pistol, you don't have to go braced. You can go the old fashioned way: just put a slick buffer tube on it, or one of those that has some foam on it so it is more comfortable for you to rest your cheek on it.

Plus, even with just the tube on there, you can easily shoot it with it braced against your shoulder. LOP is pretty short. And if you shoot 500+ rounds through it, it might start to get uncomfortable. But with the 5.56, you really just don't need a lot of padding between the tube and your shoulder. I've shot 9mm carbines that kicked harder. Mainly because they were blowback operation.

 

[krw]

If you have AR’s, you had might as well go ahead and SBR one. I have 10.5” uppers in 223, 7.62x39 and 300 BlkOut. Should have went shorter with the BlkOut upper. I run all these suppressed with SiCo Omega that is papered as well
I fully expect the pistol brace BS to get struck down in court. They were sold legally. I do not believe the ATF has the legal abillity to make laws.
BUT, pistol braces should have never been allowed to have been sold because all that was was a way to get around the NFA definition of an SBR. But I still bought a couple 🤣🤣

 

[outlaw_dogboy]

If you have AR’s, you had might as well go ahead and SBR one. I have 10.5” uppers in 223, 7.62x39 and 300 BlkOut. Should have went shorter with the BlkOut upper. I run all these suppressed with SiCo Omega that is papered as well
I fully expect the pistol brace BS to get struck down in court. They were sold legally. I do not believe the ATF has the legal abillity to make laws.
BUT, pistol braces should have never been allowed to have been sold because all that was was a way to get around the NFA definition of an SBR. But I still bought a couple 🤣🤣

The advantage of putting a pistol buffer tube on instead of doing and SBR is it allows you to transport the weapon without papers.
Pistols with slick buffer tubes have been around forever. Well, OK, 20 years or so, I believe. I think there was a good reason for the invention of the braces, what with the perceived (by me) number of soldiers coming back from overseas maimed. But people had to take it too far. And IMO, the SBA3 and SBA4 were just a bridge too far. Well, two bridges to far. When you can slap a brace on to a mil-spec buffer tube and have it be easily adjustable? Again... I see the utility of it... but then it just is too much like a butt stock.

I expect the pistol brace ban to be struck down in court, too. But I'm not counting on it. I have slick tubes for my pistols. Had them first, before any braces came out. As for braces were to get around the NFA... Well, it could be argued the NFA should be abolished as unconstitutional, too. But that's a different can of worms.

 

[Kevin]

Wow, there is just way more to this than I ever thought.

Thanks for all the comments. They were actually very helpful and informative.

 

[NikA]

@outlaw_dogboy, AR pistols enjoyed a resurgence after the AWB sunset in 2004, so they are almost exactly 20 years old in terms of technology. Prior to that, they were a niche item due to the 2 factor rules as applied to handguns.

Though less onerous travel is indeed an advantage of an AR pistol versus an SBR, the ATF themselves have indicated in the past that a papered SBR lacking SBR features (e.g., swapping the stock for a featureless buffer tube) may be transported as a normal firearm. How long that opinion will be allowed to stand, who can say?