Appleseed / Ruger 10-22 Takedown / Prone Position

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Reviewer2

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
7
“It’s a poor craftsman that blames his tools”.

I acknowledge many of the difficulties I had are the result of my choices. I hadn’t owned a .22 since the late 80’s. When I saw the 10-22 on one of the outdoorsy/gun cable channels, I thought, Hmmm, I’d like one of those.

I saw the story on Appleseed http://appleseedinfo.org/ on “Shooting Gallery”. Mental note to self: That’s something I’d like to do.

1: With the 10-22 Takedown Case provided by Ruger, there’s minimal room for a scope. I bought a TRUGLO #: TG853932B http://www.midwayusa.com/product/45..._-Service_Emails-_-ShippingConf-_-ProductLink 11.5” long scope. Find a shorter scope.

2: The Scope sticks out past the end of the stock when the rifle is broken down. Positioning the Scope as far back as possible barely allows the case to be zipped shut.

3: The Majority of the Appleseed course is taught from the Prone position, relying on using a “GI” sling. Although I had enough distance from my eye to the scope, (Eye Relief) while standing, from prone position, the scope was TOO CLOSE. I was resorting to holding the rifle 2” forward of my shoulder, essentially turning it into a pistol.

4: Appleseed is shot entirely from a distance of 25 yards, using smaller targets to simulate increased distance. I never needed a scope for Appleseed, and in my situation, it made for an unpleasant experience.

5: During the Lunch Break, I was allowed to move my scope forward. I stapled a sheet of newspaper behind the little Appleseed target to be able to tell where I was hitting. The part of the course which covers scope adjustment was way too late the first day. We were not permitted to make scope adjustments prior to that. My rifle will not fit back in the case with the scope forward enough for PRONE shooting !

6: Finding a “GI” sling with quick detach isn’t simple. The 10-22 Takedown foregrip Barrel Ring is plastic, I used 80 grit sandpaper to thin down the non-recessed side, (opposite the Nut Recess), to allow for a quick detach connector. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/78..._-Service_Emails-_-ShippingConf-_-ProductLink For the rear, drill an undersized diameter hole. The Butt Plate can be removed to epoxy the screw from inside the stock. The material in the stock is THIN. I had to carefully scrape off a gummy substance, (Glue ?) before replacing the Butt Plate.

7: Look for online videos on shooting prone with a sling before purchasing one. Like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrKyU2mPWIY (added 09/05/2013 "Reviewer2").

8: I’m in my 50’s and wear bi-focal glasses, I already knew I can’t shoot with bifocals. I took my non-bifocal glasses to shoot with. If you wear bifocals, (or even glasses), try the PRONE shooting position prior to going to Appleseed. It proved very difficult for me, and the strain on my neck was considerable. When we finally got to the seated position towards the end of the 1st day, I did much better than the Prone position.

9: It poured for an hour when I took the course. Take a SHOOTING MAT that can get wet, and something to cover your rifle. We were not permitted to put our rifles in our cars. The instructors had to move rifles that would have been under water to non-puddle parts of the range.
 

Precision32

Blackhawk
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
629
Location
Ocala, FL
The take-down is hard to put a scope on and shoot the way Appleseed teaches. Appleseed teaches you how to shoot like the Marines did in WWII. Your take-down would work with a set of Tech-Sights.

Here is the way I set up scoped 10-22s.

733c8d90-bf18-4930-9ca0-d4c039f1f9aa.jpg


This set-up gives you proper eye relief and the raised comb allows a proper cheek weld rather than trying to rest your head on your jaw.
 

Reviewer2

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
7
I ordered 1-1/4" quick detach swivels http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00162JLGA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

A shorter scope (9.1-inch tube length) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001JJCHR0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And another case, in case it still won't fit in Ruger's case. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001BR2Z8G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Which, I can apparently use on my WASR 10/63 Romanian Underfolder. I still haven't washed the mud out of the Ruger case.

And ... a "real" sling. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KXD2GX8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'll repost with some photos once I get it set up. That "Raised Comb" looks like a good idea, too. Thanks Mr. "Precision32".
 

Pyzon

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
4
So is there a scope that will fit inside the case without modification or sliding fore and back ? I am thinking
a fixed 4 power would be enough, IF it would fit inside the stock case.
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
9,325
Location
Greenville, SC: USA
My thoughts.... give the iron sights a try.... you really are only supposed to have the front sight in focus you know.... and originally that is how Appleseed was supposed to teach you.... they compromised in the last year or so.
Or what about a 1MOA red dot?

The type of ammo you use is important.... find what the 10/22 really likes.

I still have not mastered the use of the sling .... but one solution I figure out is to buy two and then make one that can quick disconnect...I really can't explain how to do it, but if you get two it's easy to figure out how to make one that is extremely functional.

I'm in my 50's too and even though I do physical work everyday... I've lost a lot of flexibility and the going from standing to kneeling to prone was very difficult for me... it flat our wore me out part way through the first day the first time I did an Appleseed.... I would never do one of these in hot or inclement weather.
 

Precision32

Blackhawk
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
629
Location
Ocala, FL
blume357 said:
My thoughts.... give the iron sights a try.... you really are only supposed to have the front sight in focus you know.... and originally that is how Appleseed was supposed to teach you.... they compromised in the last year or so.
Not sure of what "compromise" you're referring to? Appleseed has always allowed scoped rifles in the six years I've been doing events. You are correct that your eyesight has to allow you to focus on the front sight.
The type of ammo you use is important.... find what the 10/22 really likes.
Very good advise. Ammo can make a big difference.
I still have not mastered the use of the sling .... but one solution I figure out is to buy two and then make one that can quick disconnect...I really can't explain how to do it, but if you get two it's easy to figure out how to make one that is extremely functional.
We discourage the use of the QD feature. The whole point is getting into and out of the sling so that it becomes second nature to you. Using the QD kind of defeats that purpose.
I'm in my 50's too and even though I do physical work everyday... I've lost a lot of flexibility and the going from standing to kneeling to prone was very difficult for me... it flat our wore me out part way through the first day the first time I did an Appleseed.... I would never do one of these in hot or inclement weather.
There is a work around for this problem. I have the same issue with five bad discs in my back. You get into position, setting or prone, and wait for the "LOAD" command. After the command is given, you load your rifle and you hold fire until someone else who did make the transition fires a shot first. As it's a timed event, this prevents you from having an advantage over the other shooters.

Just about anything that may be a hindrance can be over come.

Improvise, adapt and overcome.
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
9,325
Location
Greenville, SC: USA
Precision32,

Okay, I got to reply... I'm pretty sure when I did my first Appleseed about two maybe three years ago a scope was frowned on. This was in Columbia SC. But I can see how older folks would go that way... I actually like the challenge of a zero (1) power optic for this. They do make 'tactical' scopes... 1 - 4 or 3 power.

As for modifying the sling... Ill put some thing you said back: " Improvise, adapt, overcome"

Now for a question: how is waiting for some one else to fire first giving them an advantage.. And since I personally don't see how this is a compitition with any one else besides yourself...why would it matter?
 

Precision32

Blackhawk
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
629
Location
Ocala, FL
blume357 said:
Precision32,

Okay, I got to reply... I'm pretty sure when I did my first Appleseed about two maybe three years ago a scope was frowned on. This was in Columbia SC. But I can see how older folks would go that way... I actually like the challenge of a zero (1) power optic for this. They do make 'tactical' scopes... 1 - 4 or 3 power.

It must have been the instructor. In my time with Appleseed I have never heard anything bad said about someone using a scope. We do recommend that if you use a variable power scope that you use the lowest setting. If you use the higher settings you see every beat of your heart as the reticule jumps all over the target.

As for modifying the sling... Ill put some thing you said back: " Improvise, adapt, overcome"

True, but how many times do you run around the house wearing just a sling? Well, may be not just a sling. Some pants would be a good idea. :mrgreen: It may work on the range, but after you go home, if you have not learned how to get in and out of the sling, how do you remember how to? It's just a recommendation, we don't beat you and make you do it. But the whole idea is to learn how to use the sling the way Appleseed teaches. We all learn by repetition. Having to sling up every time just aids in putting into your memory.

Now for a question: how is waiting for some one else to fire first giving them an advantage.. And since I personally don't see how this is a competition with any one else besides yourself...why would it matter?

The stages are timed. Someone making the transition will have less time for actually dropping the hammer than someone who is already in position. Not having the person already in position wait on the others who do to fire the first shot, does give the person not making the transition an advantage; more trigger time. You are absolutely correct, Appleseed is not a competition with anyone but yourself. Would you really want to cheat yourself by taking advantage of your physical challenge?
 
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
1,547
Location
NH: LIVE FREE OR DIE
"Want to learn how to shoot a rifle...buy the book"!

The Art of the Rifle by Jeff Cooper...great book, read it through twice...you will know how to use a sling and when to use it...a great book IMHO....and you will be better for it....

yMMV...
 

Bullseye57

Single-Sixer
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Messages
372
I appreciate everybody's interest and comments. Adding a link to this sling video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrKyU2mPWIY
Over the next few days, my new shorter scope, GI sling will arrive, I'll update on the whole 10-22 Takedown sling prone topic.

That video has is a good demo on how to use a "GI" web service rifle sling. It is very important when you form the loop that you turn it 1/2 turn away from you. When you place your arm into the loop, the tension you apply to snug it will keep the sling tightly wrapped around your upper arm. The web sling remains tight as long as you keep tension on your hold. The instructor adjusts the metal clip buckle up near the stock swivel, I do not as that is typically were my hand rests. By moving the adjuster clip back more I can still adjust the length of the sling while my arm is wrapped around it with my non-slung hand. You want to adjust the length of the sling so when in position, you relax your front (slung) arm tension, relax the front hand (don't grip the forestock), and close your eyes. When you open them, your sights should be aligned on the target right were you wish to hit. You can shift your body position slightly to correct azimuth errors or shift the front hand placement on the stock to adjust for slight elevation errors. Once you get all aligned up, the sling will hold the rifle in place on the target as you shoot just like a bench rest vise (very stable). Remember the sling holds the weight of the rifle, all your arm does is provide the tension for the sling to stay snug. When everything is aligned on target also remember to keep that left elbow glued to the spot on the ground, otherwise you will shift your point of aim every time you move the elbow.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye
 

Precision32

Blackhawk
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Messages
629
Location
Ocala, FL
blume357 said:
I'll check out the book, but just so precision32 knows where I'm coming from...

There is nothing better, at least in my experience, than two days at an Appleseed.

I hope I did not give offense; it was never my intend. I understand completely where you are coming from. :wink:

It's a great good program. Very family friendly.

What Bullseye57 describes is Natural Point of Aim (NPOA). At the first Appleseed I did, we had an exercise that they don't do any more. The insurance company had a cow when they found out about it. Everyone slung up in the prone position and established their NPOA. When everyone confirmed they had NPOA the shoot boss said "Now load your rifle, confirm your NPOA, close your eyes and fire five rounds." Believe it or not, those shooters that truly had their NPOA put 5 rounds in the 1-1/2" square target.

Learning to use the sling and NPOA is at the heart of good marksmanship.
 

Reviewer2

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
7
Adding video links:

7: Look for online videos on shooting prone with a sling before purchasing one. Like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrKyU2mPWIY (added 09/05/2013 "Reviewer2").

Mid Lesson - Slings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcGcN7t1oHw

Prone Rifle Sling Use http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrKyU2mPWIY
Already up in #7.

Improving Your Shooting #8. USGI Sling on Garand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRPfj-6bRZM

Lock, Stock & Barrel: Adding Sling Swivels to the Ruger 10/22 Takedown http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytEVfMShOvI
 

Bullseye57

Single-Sixer
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Messages
372
My apologies, I also meant to say once you relax with your eyes closed, take a few breaths and then open your eyes back up again. I did not intend to mean that you should shoot the string with your eyes closed. However if you do truly have your NPA you can do just that with a high degree of success. It just takes the conscious mind out of the equation and lets you flow with your natural body rhythm when you shoot.

I am a double Distinguished Marksman. I shoot service high power rifle and service pistol matches competitively. Appleseed instructs everyday folks in the art of service rifle marksmanship fundamentals albeit with a .22 rifle. All I was trying to describe is the proper use of the GI web sling for support of the non-shooting hand.

R,
Bullseye
 

Bullseye57

Single-Sixer
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Messages
372
I'm not sure what exactly you're having problems with using the web sling. I can add a little more information: The sling supports the weight of the rifle. The arm must be relaxed or the muscles will quickly fatigue and begin to tremble, thus transmitting that trembling motion to the rifle. All the slung arm and hand provide is minimal support. Tension on the sling is not so much that it hurts, but firm enough to keep the rifle sights on target without having to manually lift the rifle to maintain the point of aim. Mostly I use a leather GI sling with the pre-punched adjustment holes, this way I can get the same sling length every time I go into the prone position. Typically I make a little mark on the sling for prone because there is also the sitting position which requires a different sling length. I also mark on the leather the length for the sitting position. The cotton web sling can also be marked with a permanent marker for the placement of the buckle adjuster for proper length in a way similar to its leather counterpart. Most folks make the mistake of grasping the front of the rifle with the supported hand, this causes trembling too. Relax the supporting hand - think of it like the bench rest sand bag - just let the rifle sit in the relaxed palm when you shoot. It is not unusual to have a tingling sensation in your hand and fingers when slung up for a long time. Your arm's veins are being constricted by the loop snugly wrapped around your upper arm - Just let it tingle and keep everything relaxed.

R,
Bullseye
 

m657

Buckeye
Joined
Dec 1, 2007
Messages
1,417
Location
sunny Orygun territory
per the request for comments:

I went to Appleseed about a year ago, just prior to my cataract surgery. I really truly DID need the scope.

I give high praises for the program. In my particular case a couple of glitches meant I went home early:

1) I'm an antique geezer with some permanent unchangeable physical issues and getting up/down really IS a problem;

2) I was coming down with some kind of flu and had to withdraw;

3) the TD10/22 and the sling the instructor supplied along with my habitus simply were incompatible.....at maximum adjustment the sling was so tight it actually pulled the TD enough from 2 ends with me as the fulcrum the POI actually changed by 6" on the target.

It was unpleasant for all.....then it started raining.

In any case, I intend to take up another session some day, it was a wonderful program.

RE: OPTICS
I searched long and far for a scope that will fit in my TD bag without problem.

All that have interest in such, should check out the Nikon P223 3x32. At 8" it fits perfectly. The Nikon P223 series also has a variable that's a little longer, that is TOO big to fit the bag.

Thanks for the tips on this subject.
 

Reviewer2

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
7
Enough with the rifle too long for the case. I solved this issue once and for all.
I got the Black Polymer Stock - Anodized BLACK Aluminum Underfold - Take Down Version Part Number: BLK-BLK/PH1
https://underfoldstocks.com/uploads/Products/14bfa6bb14875e45bba028a21ed38046/1377408424-xpsd21.png
I don't think the Appleseed folks will be too happy with a non-traditional stock, but that's a once in a lifetime event. The cheek contact with the underfolder seems ok, I'll let you know once I shoot with it. I just put it on tonight.
http://www.amazon.com/Underfold-Sto...Anodized+Arms+for+Ruger+10/22+Take+Down+Rifle
The factory barrel band is used, but I still have to figure out where to connect/attach the rear sling swivel, (there's nothing provided on the underfolder).

My issues with my Barska scope were resolved when they sent me allen head bolts for the scope rings, (free). The combo slotted/phillips screws were damaged , even using the Weaver torque wrench at the lightest setting, (aluminum rings).

The rifle with the scope now easily fits in the Ruger factory takedown case.
BARSKA 3-9x42 IR Contour Dual Color Reticle 30/30 IR Riflescope 9.1-inch tube length.
 

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