With it being a revolver, and a short barrel at that, makes me think of a light load/detonation being the culprit. IMO. I am glad no one was injured, and gun replaced. I would think Federal would at least give you a box of ammo.
gramps
gramps
Anyone have a catastrophic Failure on a Sp101 like this?
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George
Blackhawk
How does a light load of powder cause this kind of damage without something being stuck in the barrel? Or the gun not being in time? Or if the gun was really cold say -40F maybe I could understand then. Please help me understand. This is something I don't want to do, me being new to reloading! Thanks! George
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
There is a problem called 'detonation' that is an explosion rather than the burning of the propellant in a cartridge. It has been reported occasionally and is thought to be from using light loads of slow burning powder, like H-110. Hodgdon actually has a warning about unstable ignition with H-110 on the bottle and on their website. They say to not reduce loads by more than 5%.George said:
The theory about detonation is that a case that is less than full can have a flash-over of the propellant and a too rapid ignition resulting in an explosion.
Here is a discussion about loading H-110. You will notice that light charges can cause a squip but sometimes detonation has been reported also.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103570-overpressure-issues-H110-when-underloaded
john guedry
Single-Sixer
Good to hear the gun is being replaced, it would have surprised me if Ruger had not done so.
5of7
Hunter
I got started handloading about 60 years ago with shotshells. I quickly graduated to rifle and handgun cartridges starting with the 25/06 (known then as the 25 Neidner) using surplus 4831. The Lyman manual of the day cautioned about using reduced charges of slower burning powders in cases like the 25/06 because of detonation.
I recall reading the article with interest, since I was doing exactly what they advised against.
The gist of the article was that while the exact cause was not well enough known as to enable Lyman to duplicate the phenomenon reliably, it was their OPINION that the primer would fail to ignite the powder all at once because of the air space above the powder charge, (the cartridge laying horizontally in the chamber) and would at the same time produce enough pressure to start the bullet down the bore an inch or two, THEN the rest of the powder would ignite because of the burning of the powder that WAS ignited by the primer, the bullet being already started and likely stuck in the rifling.
This created a pressure piling effect resulting in a catastrophic detonation.
I don't know any more about it than that, but even today there are warnings about reducing slow burning powders below a certain point, Blue Dot being among them. I suspect that is the most likely explanation for the unfortunate experience of our friend here on the Ruger forum.
I recall reading the article with interest, since I was doing exactly what they advised against.
The gist of the article was that while the exact cause was not well enough known as to enable Lyman to duplicate the phenomenon reliably, it was their OPINION that the primer would fail to ignite the powder all at once because of the air space above the powder charge, (the cartridge laying horizontally in the chamber) and would at the same time produce enough pressure to start the bullet down the bore an inch or two, THEN the rest of the powder would ignite because of the burning of the powder that WAS ignited by the primer, the bullet being already started and likely stuck in the rifling.
This created a pressure piling effect resulting in a catastrophic detonation.
I don't know any more about it than that, but even today there are warnings about reducing slow burning powders below a certain point, Blue Dot being among them. I suspect that is the most likely explanation for the unfortunate experience of our friend here on the Ruger forum.
Chuck 100 yd
Hunter
5of7 , when I first read this thread that was exactly my thought also. The powder company's could not ,at the time, 'prove' that detonation was real but I believe it is a reality. There have been to many reports since that have not been resolved.
I have been reloading for a long time also. I started by helping my dad load for his Rem. .244 back in 1955 sitting at the kitchen table and using a Lyman nutcracker hand tool. I was nine at the time.My dad killed 64 Fox that winter with OUR reloads.
I have been reloading for a long time also. I started by helping my dad load for his Rem. .244 back in 1955 sitting at the kitchen table and using a Lyman nutcracker hand tool. I was nine at the time.My dad killed 64 Fox that winter with OUR reloads.
Jimbo357mag said:
Please link to this warning about 'detonation' or SEE (Secondary Explosive Effect)...
The only warning I am aware of from Hodgdon is the H110 'Do Not Reduce' which is clearly about squibs and stuck bullets:
"H110 Loads should not be reduced more than 3%. Reduce H110 Loads 3% and work up from there. H110 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders.
DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%."
5of7 said:
The only Blue Dot warnings I am aware of have nothing to do with reduced loads:
"During the latest review Alliant Powder discovered that Alliant Powder's Blue Dot® should not be used in the following applications:
"Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).
Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights).
Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury."
http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_started/safety/safety_notices.aspx
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
I didn't say they had a warning about detonation. They say "inconsistent ignition". I'm sure they don't want to say what it can do to your gun.Salmoneye said:
It's like warnings about anything.
You will also notice that most powder manufactures say not to reduce there loads more than the 'start' loads that they list. They don't say what might happen.
I remember when they put this warning onto H-110. There had been a lot of talk about problems with it by people that had explosions in their guns. There was lots of speculation but the testing labs could not duplicate the problem. Then all of a sudden they came out with this 'do not reduce more than 3% rule. It was much stronger than the accepted 10% rule or 'go no lower than the start load' for slow powders reloaders had been using.
George
Blackhawk
I got some Hi-Skor 700X on the way for ,45acp.. No issues with ihis right! George
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
Hodgdon / IMR has lots of data for 700XGeorge said:
quote> It doubles as an excellent pistol target powder for such cartridges as the 38 Special and 45 ACP and many more. <end
Never heard of that problem associated with 700X. Just follow their published data.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
George
Blackhawk
Jim Thank you!! Just getting started so lots to learn! No shortcuts here! That's for sure! George
Dennis
Single-Sixer
I wouldn't be too concerned about Ruger not responding with specifics about the gun failure. There.are folks out there that will use information like this and twist it to their own agenda. Kind of like people buying limited hunting licenses but never inetending to use them. They don't hunt and will do what they can so others cant hunt either.
Chuck 100 yd
Hunter
George , 700X is a very good powder in the ACP. Be careful not to double charge just like any other low bulk fast burning powder.
I always charge my cases and place them in a loading block first. I then inspect all for proper powder level. Any that look or seem different get dumped and recharged. That does not happen but it is better to be safe than sorry. Last ,the bullets are seated and crimped.
If you are loading on a progressive, follow directions for that press carefully to prevent double charges or low or total lack of charge. Stay safe friend!
I always charge my cases and place them in a loading block first. I then inspect all for proper powder level. Any that look or seem different get dumped and recharged. That does not happen but it is better to be safe than sorry. Last ,the bullets are seated and crimped.
If you are loading on a progressive, follow directions for that press carefully to prevent double charges or low or total lack of charge. Stay safe friend!
Jimbo357mag said:
I had an experience like this when first handloading 357, using Hodgdon HS6. I was trying to see how light I could make the load, and I think I got down to about 5.5 grains of powder. The first round I shot felt like everything was in slow motion. Hammer fell, primer went off... Waiting... Powder went off. I stopped right there and pulled the remaining 11 rounds apart when I got home, and didn't do that again. :mrgreen:
5of7
Hunter
Talking about reduced loads.....I have never found anything that is a better bet than AA2.
It measures well, is easy to ignite, produces very low shot to shot variation and produces small groups.....that is when I do my part. 8)
It measures well, is easy to ignite, produces very low shot to shot variation and produces small groups.....that is when I do my part. 8)
Jimbo357mag said:
Here is what you said that I asked about:
You clearly state that Hodgdon warned about "that kind of thing" as in "a very light charge"...
I posted the actual Hodgdon warning, and it clearly states that the inconsistent ignition can lead to a stuck bullet...
Carry_Up
Single-Sixer
Well, this has all been very interesting starting with both Ruger and Federal shrugging their shoulders. It is unfortunate that they will not share their findings with the rest of the world. Obviously!! the gun can't be repaired. That was a waste of time to say to the owner.
But the speculation on going below minimum charge is of interest. I have several handloading books and none of them go into the subject of possible detonation due to below minimum charges. They all warn against going below minimums, but that's all. But the behavior of propellents is not a simple subject and I'm willing to learn - I just can't picture less powder doing MORE damage. Yes, yes, it depends upon the burn rate.
.357 mag powders are FAST powders. They have to be to get the bullet going at 1600 ft/sec especially in a short barreled revolver. Intuitively a sub-minimum charge would tend to create a squib as opposed to a detonation. But the science is not intuitive I will admit. However, if a below min. charge does cause a squib, the likelihood of a second shot is pretty high unless the shooter is experienced.
In general, propellants are coated with a retardant that slows the burning to a specified rate. One mistake to avoid is to allow live rounds into your vibratory cleaner, thus tumbling the retardant off the powder granules. My personal experience is that .38 spl rounds that have been tumbled in the cleaner and then fired feel more like .357 mag rounds simply for that reason - the powder has no retardant and is more finely divided, causing it to burn much faster.
My main loading experience is with .45 auto rounds which may be a totally different subject than .357. Almost everyone who shoots bullseye competitions loads down to the point where the bullet just makes it to the target, then drops to the ground. The result of going below minimum with .45 auto powders is that the powder does not burn completely due to lack of pressure. Try it with some Bullseye powder and you will see burning bits of powder coming out the muzzle looking like a Roman candle. Unburned powder, and a mess to clean inside the gun, but hardly an invitation to detonation. Obviously things are quite different inside a .357 mag cartridge. Wonder why this subject has not come up more often, and is completely missing from hand loading books?
-Carry_Up
But the speculation on going below minimum charge is of interest. I have several handloading books and none of them go into the subject of possible detonation due to below minimum charges. They all warn against going below minimums, but that's all. But the behavior of propellents is not a simple subject and I'm willing to learn - I just can't picture less powder doing MORE damage. Yes, yes, it depends upon the burn rate.
.357 mag powders are FAST powders. They have to be to get the bullet going at 1600 ft/sec especially in a short barreled revolver. Intuitively a sub-minimum charge would tend to create a squib as opposed to a detonation. But the science is not intuitive I will admit. However, if a below min. charge does cause a squib, the likelihood of a second shot is pretty high unless the shooter is experienced.
In general, propellants are coated with a retardant that slows the burning to a specified rate. One mistake to avoid is to allow live rounds into your vibratory cleaner, thus tumbling the retardant off the powder granules. My personal experience is that .38 spl rounds that have been tumbled in the cleaner and then fired feel more like .357 mag rounds simply for that reason - the powder has no retardant and is more finely divided, causing it to burn much faster.
My main loading experience is with .45 auto rounds which may be a totally different subject than .357. Almost everyone who shoots bullseye competitions loads down to the point where the bullet just makes it to the target, then drops to the ground. The result of going below minimum with .45 auto powders is that the powder does not burn completely due to lack of pressure. Try it with some Bullseye powder and you will see burning bits of powder coming out the muzzle looking like a Roman candle. Unburned powder, and a mess to clean inside the gun, but hardly an invitation to detonation. Obviously things are quite different inside a .357 mag cartridge. Wonder why this subject has not come up more often, and is completely missing from hand loading books?
-Carry_Up
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
Inconsistent ignition can lead to more than a stuck bullet. Let's just say an explosion is possible and that might be 'that kind of thing'. Perhaps I am reading too much into what they said but that is what I think.Salmoneye said:
Manufactures have recommended what powders are to be use used for light (cowboy) loads. They are fast easy to light powders like Unique, Universal, HP-38, Bulls Eye, Red Dot, #2, etc. It has been common knowledge to not download slow powders for a long time and is mentioned in many books and manuals. All powder manufactures have explicit warnings about not following their data and proper procedures. ...and in addition Hodgdon came out with that 5% warning on H-110. Gee I wonder why?Carry_Up said:
