Yosemite Sam
Hunter
Re: Driftwood, thanks for that explanation. I was the one who originally proposed the idea of "pressure resistance". Your scenario sounds much more plausible.
-- Sam
-- Sam
Any trouble with 45 colt loads?
- Thread starter the fatman
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Bucks Owin
Hunter
Driftwood, from what I can gather, the primer actually developes enough pressure in the case to move the bullet before the powder charge burn is fairly underway.....Dennis
Driftwood Johnson
Blackhawk
Normally that should not happen. The powder should light off soon enough and develop enough pressure on its own to start the bullet out of the case in a controlled fashion. It is only when powder charges are very light, that the primer alone will tend to move the bullet before the powder starts burning efficiently.
In the Cowboy Action game I have been on hand plenty of times when a squib load was fired. Many times poor reloading practices have caused the shooter to load a round with no powder in it at all. In that case the primer usually has enough oomph to push the bullet out of the cartridge case and partially into the barrel. What usually happens in a revolver is the bullet gets stuck partway out of the cylinder and partway into the forcing cone. This will lock up the gun completely, preventing the cylinder from turning. The offending bullet has to be shoved back into the chamber and into the empty case with a rod to free up the cylinder so the gun can be unloaded. Since the gun is completely locked up and another shot cannot physically be fired, this is usually just embarrassing to the shooter and nobody gets hurt. But not always, sometimes a primer alone will push a bullet clear of the forcing cone. Then it would be easy to follow up with another shot, possibly resulting in disaster.
I have also been on hand plenty of times when there was powder in the case but it was just not enough to get the bullet all the way out of the barrel. This is the kind of light load that is the most dangerous. One time I saw a bullet protruding from the muzzle of the gun, but it did not quite make it all the way out.
I might add that in the Cowboy game most of the spotters are extremely vigilant for a squib, and will holler STOP real loud if they think a bullet may not have gotten out of the barrel. More than once I have hollered STOP when the report was very quiet and I could not be sure the bullet had exited the barrel. More than once I have been wrong, but I have also been right a number of times and we just don't want to take chances with a burst cylinder with shooters and spotters standing nearby.
272 gr hard-cast H-110 22 gr 1149-1214 avg=1178fps
This is the load that stuck a bullet for me, just barely in the forcing cone enough to tie up cylinder, big wad of unburned powder right behind the bullet. Crimp seemed fair, with no more than .030"creep after five other rounds were shot. I finally changed to a .45 ACP sizing die, which sizes a new case to ~.446". Realize that a bullet should be held tightly by case friction...long before the crimp is applied. Dillon Corp says the crimp is a minor act compared to case friction by correctly-sized case. And watch out that the case isn't belled back out when you dump powder. I reduce my powder belling die to make sure it leaves the o.d. alone.
I weigh EVERY charge on digital scale and have weights to check the scale every 10 rounds or so. These were rounds I was checking with my chronograph so I take extra, extra care to weigh within 0.1grain on powder. I even separate the bullets into groups, so that the 272 grain bullets were within +/- 1 grain. There was no burned powder. I had shot quite a few of this load with no previous problems.
This is a Colt with .457-.458" throats, so that's also quite a bit of slop with .452 bullets. It may...or may not...be relevant.
My solution? I primarily use 2400 powder. 1200 fps with heavy bullets is easy to achieve, which is as fast as I need.
I cannot confirm the primers. I "almost" always use WLP, but...
Sonnytoo
This is the load that stuck a bullet for me, just barely in the forcing cone enough to tie up cylinder, big wad of unburned powder right behind the bullet. Crimp seemed fair, with no more than .030"creep after five other rounds were shot. I finally changed to a .45 ACP sizing die, which sizes a new case to ~.446". Realize that a bullet should be held tightly by case friction...long before the crimp is applied. Dillon Corp says the crimp is a minor act compared to case friction by correctly-sized case. And watch out that the case isn't belled back out when you dump powder. I reduce my powder belling die to make sure it leaves the o.d. alone.
I weigh EVERY charge on digital scale and have weights to check the scale every 10 rounds or so. These were rounds I was checking with my chronograph so I take extra, extra care to weigh within 0.1grain on powder. I even separate the bullets into groups, so that the 272 grain bullets were within +/- 1 grain. There was no burned powder. I had shot quite a few of this load with no previous problems.
This is a Colt with .457-.458" throats, so that's also quite a bit of slop with .452 bullets. It may...or may not...be relevant.
My solution? I primarily use 2400 powder. 1200 fps with heavy bullets is easy to achieve, which is as fast as I need.
I cannot confirm the primers. I "almost" always use WLP, but...
Sonnytoo
Old Judge Creek
Single-Sixer
Mr. Driftwood Johnson,
Your experiences duplicate mine and I believe your comments/explanation are dead on the money.
In reference to squibs on the SASS line, I've actually grabbed a pistol from behind and had the hammer drop on my thumb when a "nervous nellie" did not heed my "STOP" shout after he had a squib lodged in the barrel and cocked the piece, and pulled the trigger :shock: A bit too close for my comfort. I DQ'd him from the match.
Reloaders simply cannot be TOO careful.
Your experiences duplicate mine and I believe your comments/explanation are dead on the money.
In reference to squibs on the SASS line, I've actually grabbed a pistol from behind and had the hammer drop on my thumb when a "nervous nellie" did not heed my "STOP" shout after he had a squib lodged in the barrel and cocked the piece, and pulled the trigger :shock: A bit too close for my comfort. I DQ'd him from the match.
Reloaders simply cannot be TOO careful.
Driftwood,
I have had one instance at the bench rest of a pressure problem which sounded like a detonation, too loud to be a normal and too light to be a double charge, though I've never had one. The crimps weren't particularly tight, and the test charge was 5.5 gr Bullseye in an Anaconda. The bullet was not found on the paper.
I like your explanation and went back to 7.0 of WW231, or 6.0 gr Tite Group
which both work well with the 250 gr Lazercast RNFP.
I have had one instance at the bench rest of a pressure problem which sounded like a detonation, too loud to be a normal and too light to be a double charge, though I've never had one. The crimps weren't particularly tight, and the test charge was 5.5 gr Bullseye in an Anaconda. The bullet was not found on the paper.
I like your explanation and went back to 7.0 of WW231, or 6.0 gr Tite Group
which both work well with the 250 gr Lazercast RNFP.
Bucks Owin
Hunter
This is an interesting topic that I'm glad was started. Here's where I got the notion of the primer moving the bullet first but I guess maybe I've misinterpreted what was said. This is by Allan Jones of CCI, printed in the Sept issue of Shooting Times entitled "Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All Important Primer" from the section "Too Much Primer": "You can have too much primer.When the output gas volume of the primer approaches that of the cartridge case, sometimes special handling is required. I remember when CCI was working with some experimental primers for 9mm Luger, and we started seeing odd time-pressure curves on the computer. Instead of the normal single peak, we saw two. One QA tech commented that it looked like the dual humps of a Bactrian camel. It was a classic case of high gas volume but too little temperature. The primer's extra gas unseated the bullet while still trying to light off the main charge, producing one peak. Then the bullet retarded as it engaged the rifling, creating the second peak. Although a shooter would never notice this in a production firearm, that double hump was worrisome and we abandoned that mix" The article goes on but that was the part that caught my eye. Interesting huh? This gets me wondering about really light charges of "somewhat" slow powders, eg Unique, HS-6 etc, in large cases like the .45 Colt. (Guess that's why there are "starting" loads!)....Anyway, FWIW, Dennis
