Another "crazy" idea; Bisley 454 Casull/45 Colt convertible

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Onty

Single-Sixer
Joined
Dec 17, 2000
Messages
394
My apology folks. I've got grounded (well, almost, wife is scared to the bone when I go out) because of that corona pandemic, and was looking at my little 44 project:

5fshz9Z.jpg


Who ever said that Bisleys are addictive, was right! And, since 454 Bisley came out, with my favorite barrel length 6.5", I started thinking about it. Also, I LIKE 45 Colt. So, if Ruger could make 357 Magnum/9mm and 45 Colt/45 ACP convertibles, how about:

Bisley stainless, 6.5" barrel, 454 Casull/45 Colt convertible

Of course, 45 Colt cylinder must be fluted :D!

Here is the wish list:

1. Onty

Anybody else interested?
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
21,246
Location
Lake Lure NC USA
Uhh,, since the specs are so close as to be darn near identical,,, except for COL, why make a special cylinder for it? I have shot 45 Colt in my .454 a lot,, quite well. Just like shooting 38's in a .357.
 

Onty

Single-Sixer
Joined
Dec 17, 2000
Messages
394
You are not the only one saying that. However, I guess folks from Freedom Arms know revolvers better than anybody else on the planet. So, must be a good reason why they offer 45 Colt cylinder:

FACTORY INSTALLED OPTIONS PLACED WITH ORIGINAL ORDER: .45 Colt cylinder fit to 454 Casull® Revolver
http://www.freedomarms.com/fionew/index.html

Here is why:

Here's Bob Baker's (Freedom Arms Owner) reply on Graybeard's forum:

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,189645.msg1099239708.html#msg1099239708
...

Re: using a 45LC in a 454
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 09:10:34 AM »

Quote

The 45 Colt is .100 shorter than the 454 Casull. When shooting the 45C in 454 chambers, lead and powder residue is left in the chamber just ahead of the case. This build up of residue can restrict chambering the longer 454 cartridge and can cause excess pressure by not allowing the crimp of the 454 to easily open up to allow the bullet to exit the case.

Another potential problem is when the revolver is cooling down after firing it collects moisture. This moisture mixed with the lead and powder residue creates an acid which can etch the chamber underneath the lead and powder residue. With this condition, even if the residue is cleaned out of the chamber, the longer 454 case will now stick in the etched area of the chamber when fired and can be difficult to remove depending on the amount of etching. Over the years we have seen this problem more from guns in high humidity areas than from low humidity areas but it still occurs in the low humidity areas.

For some folks this seems to be an emotional issue and some folks even claim that all we are trying to do make extra money on extra cylinders. What we are actually trying to do is help our customers get the most trouble free life from their FA revolver as possible. I know of some customers that have shot thousands of 45C rounds in their 454 chambers with no problems but they thoroughly clean the gun when finished shooting. Other customers have ended up with one of the above problems fairly quick also. All we can do is put out the information, it is up to the individual what they do with the information.


From https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/45lc-in-freedom-arms-mod-83.625740/

And people are buying it:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/982716433/Freedom-Arms-model-83-Field-grade-6-454-Casull-extra-45LC-cylinder-special-grips-Magna-Ported-adj-grips-original-box-looks-like-never-fired.htm
https://www.gunsamerica.com/944585839/Freedom-Arms-Model-83-454-Casull-extra-45-LC-cylinder-7-5-ported-unfired.htm
https://lsbauctions.com/10414/freedom-arms-83-premier-grade-stainless-4-75-454-single-action-revolver-3-cylinders-45-acp-colt/

Once I had driven car with standard gearbox without even clutch working (cable snapped). No, nothing broken, I knew car very well. But, if it could be done, it doesn't mean that's right.
 

Onty

Single-Sixer
Joined
Dec 17, 2000
Messages
394
SteelBlue said:
He wants a fluted cylinder.
Ruger puts flutes on 45 ACP cylinder on their 45 Colt/45 ACP convertible, just to make it visually different from 45 Colt one:

wm_3769261.jpg


I personally prefer flutes on cylinder. That is one of the reasons why I purchased that SBH above.

The only other thing I regret not doing was replacing factory base pin with #5 one from Belt Mountain https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1004079797 .
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
21,246
Location
Lake Lure NC USA
I understand what Bob at FA says. We've actually talked about it in person.And yes,, you are correct in what you have posted. But it's the same with the .38 Spl/.357. The main difference are the PRESSURES of the 2 different calibers. BUT,,,, if you clean the cylinder of the .454 after shooting .45 Colt, and before shooting .454,, no problems. (Even you posted this as part of what Bob says.)
And comparing the FA's to a Ruger,, the FA's enjoy a tighter tolerance, as well as I THINK different steel in the cylinders of the stainless guns.
As for cosmetics,, that's a personal choice.

I doubt Ruger will offer a convertible, 2 cylinder .45 Colt/.454 because the market wouldn't make it a profitable venture. Yes,, they would sell some,, as does FA. But FA offers it as a custom option. Ruger doesn't do custom.

And I own a FA in 454,, and have shot .45 Colt in it. I just clean it before shooting my .454 heavy loads. But my loads are not fire breathing, loudenkickenboomer ones either. Mine were worked up for accuracy. My FA .454 enjoys a mid-range load.
I do tend to use a .45 Colt load as well in my .454,, and use .454 brass to not worry as much about having to clean it,, because of the closer tolerances. That way, I can switch loads in the field w/o worry. And in my .38/.357's,, I have a few more of those,, and I mostly do the same thing. I do have a single .357 SA revolver,, that I shoot most of my .38 Spl brass loads through. It never goes to the field,, it's mostly a range gun. If it were to be switched to a field gun,, I'd make sure it was well cleaned before shooting .357 loads in it.

So,, if you desire to own a dedicated .45 Colt cylinder for your Ruger,, why not have a custom gunsmith make you one?
 

Onty

Single-Sixer
Joined
Dec 17, 2000
Messages
394
Regarding 38 Special/357 Magnum, if you have 357 revolver, and only ammo available is 38 Special, that's fine. Otherwise, if you are reloading, why to bother with 38 Special when there are so many accurate loads using 357 Magnum brass? Try 357 brass, good quality 158 grain lead bullet, primer Winchester WSPM and Bullseye (if you want Bullseye charge, send me PM, I will reply). In my former club (half scale silhouettes) this is the most accurate load they found, and it was the best load in every single revolver they tried. As a matter of fact, those folks will grab any used 357 revolver on local market, and test it with that load. If revolver is accurate, they will keep it. If not, they will pass it, or put next day on the market.

BTW, I searched on Google about Lake Lure NC. Boy, that area looks so beautiful.
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
21,246
Location
Lake Lure NC USA
You are correct,,,there are excellent loads using 357 brass with 38 spl loads. I just happen to have a fair amount of 38 brass. I've been loading for over 40 years,, and enjoy a lot of different loads in different guns. And yes,, it is much easier to just use the same caliber brass with lighter loads to avoid the cleaning issue. It can be done in a .454 as well. Use the .454 brass with a .45 Colt charge.
I was just sharing stuff I do, as well as pointing out the fact that Ruger most likely won't build something like that due to marketing sales would not make a profit enough to where they would accept it.

Yes,, the LL area is quite beautiful. The only caveat is the excessive building of houses,, constant addition of developments, and the simple fact is we only have 1 single 2-lane road in & out of the valley. Sat in traffic for 35 minutes yesterday to get through 1.2 miles of area. Tourists,,, LOTS of tourists, and they bottleneck the area.
Normally we do not even try to go out on weekends unless we can leave early, & return later.
But the scenery,,, watch the movie; "Last of the Mohicians" (?? spelling??) and you get to see a LOT of my area.
 

Onty

Single-Sixer
Joined
Dec 17, 2000
Messages
394
Never had 38 Special, so never kept brass for the same when got bucket from the range. However, last few years I realized that I started staring into something like this:

33620538_1_x.jpg


I guess it comes when we pass 60.

Regarding the load I mentioned; 357 Magnum brass, 158 grain cast, primer WSPM and Bullseye, this load is well into magnum territory. I would say somewhere in the middle between min. and max. according to Lyman 48th https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjp7rCS-djrAhX3TxUIHbpWCywQFjAAegQIBRAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmarvinstuart.com%2Ffirearm%2FManuals%2FReloading%2FReloading%2520Manuals%2FLyman%2520Reloading%2520Handbook%2520-%252048th%2520Edition%2520-%25202002%2520-%2520ocr.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1YUNP_--9GOGE0E2stWerC , page 338. Velocity is probably about 1000 fps. The theory is that fast Bullseye gets pressure up instantly and obturates bullet while still in the cylinder, even when cast from wheelweight.

As for 45 Colt custom cylinder for 454 Bisley, well, this is pricey proposal. I would say at least 3 times the cost of FA 45 Colt cylinder for Model 83. If Ruger wants to go with this option, even if they use same steel as for 454 Casull and 480 Ruger, their MSRP shouldn't be more than $200. Unfortunately, you are right, I doubt that we will see that.

Regarding tourism, when moderate, could be blessing for local economy. But when explodes, it's a curse for everybody https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=hr&u=http://old.dubrovniknet.hr/kolumna.php%3Fid%3D46702&prev=search&pto=aue . I had seen sign in southern France "TOURISTS ARE NOT WELCOME", locals just got fed up.
 

contender

Ruger Guru
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
21,246
Location
Lake Lure NC USA
"Regarding tourism, when moderate, could be blessing for local economy. But when explodes, it's a curse for everybody. I had seen sign in southern France "TOURISTS ARE NOT WELCOME", locals just got fed up."

Tourists are just part of the problem.

It used to be that locals lived here,, owned a business, planned for the tourist season, and we also got a break when winter arrived. They raised families, built a close knot community, and in general,, most died here.
Now, it's totally different.
I tell folks; "I'm an endangered species, I'm a native here."
We've had an influx of people who have come in, built a business, or had a business,,, sold things, and moved on. They also have built real estate companies on the premise of "Build or buy your retirement home. Then, lease it out when not in use, and use the money to pay for it. Later on, you can retire here, or sell it at a profit. We'll manage it for you!"
With all this,, the local government is now made up of "imports." Not a single LOCAL in our government. They have priced most of us out.
Of course,, the need for services are still here,, and now they have to pay folks to travel into the area to provide the service. And the expense of living here has been steadily rising. Just recently, the Town of LL had ANOTHER water & sewer rate increase. Base charge, even if not a single use is $45 for water,, and $95 for sewer. That's $135 per month,, just to have it available. And if you use any,, above the listed amount allocated,, you get a scheduled fee charge.
They are charging you for the incoming water,, and then charging to dispose of it. A buddy of mine,, uses very little, and he got his monthly bill and it was $156. He's single, uses very little, and is even gone a lot during the day.
My property in LL is currently disconnected from the water system. And I have a septic system for the cabin. My cabin is unoccupied, and closed up. My taxes on the other property are stupid high due to the rate for the property values in town.

But,, the area does have some nice scenery. And we live just outside the city limits now. And we do enjoy the beauty God has graced us with. I often say; "I wish it would freeze & snow for a week in July,, to run off a lot of these imported folks!" Miss Penny doesn't think it's funny as she dislikes cold weather,, but agrees with my sentiments.
 

57springer

Buckeye
Joined
Aug 6, 2012
Messages
1,114
Location
Central Pa.
Onty said:
You are not the only one saying that. However, I guess folks from Freedom Arms know revolvers better than anybody else on the planet. So, must be a good reason why they offer 45 Colt cylinder:

FACTORY INSTALLED OPTIONS PLACED WITH ORIGINAL ORDER: .45 Colt cylinder fit to 454 Casull® Revolver
http://www.freedomarms.com/fionew/index.html

Here is why:

Here's Bob Baker's (Freedom Arms Owner) reply on Graybeard's forum:

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,189645.msg1099239708.html#msg1099239708
...

Re: using a 45LC in a 454
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 09:10:34 AM »

Quote

The 45 Colt is .100 shorter than the 454 Casull. When shooting the 45C in 454 chambers, lead and powder residue is left in the chamber just ahead of the case. This build up of residue can restrict chambering the longer 454 cartridge and can cause excess pressure by not allowing the crimp of the 454 to easily open up to allow the bullet to exit the case.

Another potential problem is when the revolver is cooling down after firing it collects moisture. This moisture mixed with the lead and powder residue creates an acid which can etch the chamber underneath the lead and powder residue. With this condition, even if the residue is cleaned out of the chamber, the longer 454 case will now stick in the etched area of the chamber when fired and can be difficult to remove depending on the amount of etching. Over the years we have seen this problem more from guns in high humidity areas than from low humidity areas but it still occurs in the low humidity areas.

For some folks this seems to be an emotional issue and some folks even claim that all we are trying to do make extra money on extra cylinders. What we are actually trying to do is help our customers get the most trouble free life from their FA revolver as possible. I know of some customers that have shot thousands of 45C rounds in their 454 chambers with no problems but they thoroughly clean the gun when finished shooting. Other customers have ended up with one of the above problems fairly quick also. All we can do is put out the information, it is up to the individual what they do with the information.


From https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/45lc-in-freedom-arms-mod-83.625740/

And people are buying it:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/982716433/Freedom-Arms-model-83-Field-grade-6-454-Casull-extra-45LC-cylinder-special-grips-Magna-Ported-adj-grips-original-box-looks-like-never-fired.htm
https://www.gunsamerica.com/944585839/Freedom-Arms-Model-83-454-Casull-extra-45-LC-cylinder-7-5-ported-unfired.htm
https://lsbauctions.com/10414/freedom-arms-83-premier-grade-stainless-4-75-454-single-action-revolver-3-cylinders-45-acp-colt/

Once I had driven car with standard gearbox without even clutch working (cable snapped). No, nothing broken, I knew car very well. But, if it could be done, it doesn't mean that's right.
Makes sense to me , listen to the experts !
 

57springer

Buckeye
Joined
Aug 6, 2012
Messages
1,114
Location
Central Pa.
Onty said:
You are not the only one saying that. However, I guess folks from Freedom Arms know revolvers better than anybody else on the planet. So, must be a good reason why they offer 45 Colt cylinder:

FACTORY INSTALLED OPTIONS PLACED WITH ORIGINAL ORDER: .45 Colt cylinder fit to 454 Casull® Revolver
http://www.freedomarms.com/fionew/index.html

Here is why:

Here's Bob Baker's (Freedom Arms Owner) reply on Graybeard's forum:

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,189645.msg1099239708.html#msg1099239708
...

Re: using a 45LC in a 454
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 09:10:34 AM »

Quote

The 45 Colt is .100 shorter than the 454 Casull. When shooting the 45C in 454 chambers, lead and powder residue is left in the chamber just ahead of the case. This build up of residue can restrict chambering the longer 454 cartridge and can cause excess pressure by not allowing the crimp of the 454 to easily open up to allow the bullet to exit the case.

Another potential problem is when the revolver is cooling down after firing it collects moisture. This moisture mixed with the lead and powder residue creates an acid which can etch the chamber underneath the lead and powder residue. With this condition, even if the residue is cleaned out of the chamber, the longer 454 case will now stick in the etched area of the chamber when fired and can be difficult to remove depending on the amount of etching. Over the years we have seen this problem more from guns in high humidity areas than from low humidity areas but it still occurs in the low humidity areas.

For some folks this seems to be an emotional issue and some folks even claim that all we are trying to do make extra money on extra cylinders. What we are actually trying to do is help our customers get the most trouble free life from their FA revolver as possible. I know of some customers that have shot thousands of 45C rounds in their 454 chambers with no problems but they thoroughly clean the gun when finished shooting. Other customers have ended up with one of the above problems fairly quick also. All we can do is put out the information, it is up to the individual what they do with the information.


From https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/45lc-in-freedom-arms-mod-83.625740/

And people are buying it:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/982716433/Freedom-Arms-model-83-Field-grade-6-454-Casull-extra-45LC-cylinder-special-grips-Magna-Ported-adj-grips-original-box-looks-like-never-fired.htm
https://www.gunsamerica.com/944585839/Freedom-Arms-Model-83-454-Casull-extra-45-LC-cylinder-7-5-ported-unfired.htm
https://lsbauctions.com/10414/freedom-arms-83-premier-grade-stainless-4-75-454-single-action-revolver-3-cylinders-45-acp-colt/

Once I had driven car with standard gearbox without even clutch working (cable snapped). No, nothing broken, I knew car very well. But, if it could be done, it doesn't mean that's right.
Makes sense to me , listen to the experts !
 

Xrayist

Single-Sixer
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
134
Maybe it is just me. I have never shot a .38 special in any .357, .44 special in .44 mag that I have ever owned. I have loads in both calibers that match the special cases, so I don't see the need. If I want to shoot .38, then I use a .38 handgun. If I want to shoot .44 special, I use a .44 special handgun. That is just me.
 

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