Alternating Ammo?

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Joe Chartreuse

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I have always been a bigger fan of small caliber pistols, hence, my love of the LCP ll. I have read so many posts saying that small caliber .22 LR and .380 are not good defense rounds. I have always disagreed, as I have seen both in action. Anyway, a thought came to mind regarding .22 LR. I am sure I am not the first, but have never read anything on it before. Using my .22 LR LCP ll, I figured why not alternate high velocity standard rounds and hollow points within the same mag? I mean, there are ten shots there. Hollow points to stop and shock, standards for deeper penetration. Seems to me it makes a great defensive combo. Tried it while field shooting and loved the result. Thoughts?
 

Mobuck

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From my experience, you will not see appreciable expansion from the typical HVHP at the velocities achieved with the LCP. At best, the HVHP has a more blunt tip profile that may(?) create a bit more effect. The 22 bullet that I do see some merit in is the Winchester(maybe other brands also) 'segmented HP'. The petals shed creating a shallow but wider wound leaving the shank to penetrate. In water filled milk jugs, the shank penetrated nearly as far as HVHP but caused far more damage in passing through jug #1.
 

the_leper_colony

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... I figured why not alternate high velocity standard rounds and hollow points within the same mag? I mean, there are ten shots there. Hollow points to stop and shock, standards for deeper penetration. Seems to me it makes a great defensive combo. Tried it while field shooting and loved the result. Thoughts?

As long as the firearm & mags function reliably with the alternating rounds, and (as Mobuck notes above) you get the performance you're looking for, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that approach. I've seen it referred to as using "Dutch loads", and while it may not be ideal for a precision rifle (due to different ammo having different trajectories), the military uses a similar approach when they load ball, tracer, API, etc., in the same belt or magazine.

IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, etc., etc.
 

arcticruger

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Reminds me of my younger days when I use to carry my SBH while moose hunting for bear protection. I’d load with alternating SP and HP rounds. Although I seen plenty bear, thankfully never had to use it.
 

Biggfoot44

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1. .22lr unlikely to expand from that bbl length

2. You can't count on always having a successful mag dump. You may have only opportunity for one shot , or only score one hit . Each ctg in the gun should be whichever you believe to be most suitable for intended purposes .( * Narrow exceptions below .)

3. There is sometimes a rationale for have a separate magizine of different type ammo . Examples include - normal SD loads , and deep penetration " bear loads " , to switch when moving from town into the woods .

Narrow Exception #1 - If in environment where snakes are an actual major concern , having a shot load first up .

Narrow Exception #2 - Once upon a decade , most semiauto pistols were finicky as to feeding . It used to be a thing to hand load into chamber a super duper expander , but have reliable feeding rounds in the mag . ie , my AMT .380 would only feed R-P and PMC jhp , so I carried a Super Vel in chamber , and R-P in mag .
 

Joe Chartreuse

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1. .22lr unlikely to expand from that bbl length

2. You can't count on always having a successful mag dump. You may have only opportunity for one shot , or only score one hit . Each ctg in the gun should be whichever you believe to be most suitable for intended purposes .( * Narrow exceptions below .)

3. There is sometimes a rationale for have a separate magizine of different type ammo . Examples include - normal SD loads , and deep penetration " bear loads " , to switch when moving from town into the woods .

Narrow Exception #1 - If in environment where snakes are an actual major concern , having a shot load first up .

Narrow Exception #2 - Once upon a decade , most semiauto pistols were finicky as to feeding . It used to be a thing to hand load into chamber a super duper expander , but have reliable feeding rounds in the mag . ie , my AMT .380 would only feed R-P and PMC jhp , so I carried a Super Vel in chamber , and R-P in mag .
Not quite sure what you mean by no expansion at that barrel length. The target shows expansion. I'm no HP expert, so this is why I ask. Why would a short barrel keep any HP from expanding? Can't wrap my head around it.
 

Cholo

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↑ All hollow point bullets, not just 22's, are designed to expand properly between X (low) and Y (high) velocities. It's possible the velocity will be too slow to expand out of a short barrel like the LCPll in question.
 

GunnyGene

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↑ All hollow point bullets, not just 22's, are designed to expand properly between X (low) and Y (high) velocities. It's possible the velocity will be too slow to expand out of a short barrel like the LCPll in question.

There are several scenarios where a HP does not perform as advertised. Besides impact velocity, JHP's often have problems with hard surfaces such as windshields and metal doors. If they hit at a slight angle the cavity will often collapse inwards from one side and thus not expand. I've experienced that myself, even with 135grn +P Hornady Critical Duty (9mm). Generally speaking, once that bullet touches a living target surface all bets are off as to what happens next.
 

Mobuck

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It seems that there are many 22 rimfire shooters who haven't followed 'wound tracks' left by 22 bullets. I've not seen ANY significant expansion (beyond bullet diameter)of 22HVHP bullets fired from handgun length barrels even from very short range. From my perspective, the only positive effect the HP has is a flatter meplat which does transfer more energy to the target. It is my OPINION that the HP bullet is less likely to be deflected if/when hitting bone but this is difficult to prove unequivocally. This does give a small advantage to the HP bullet which may/may not be worthwhile.
The basis of these opinions: I used to trap, shoot, and skin hundreds of raccoons (and a few coyotes) every year. If a bullet doesn't expand in a 20# body @ 2', it's not likely to be expand.
 

Snake Pleskin

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I have been able in earlier years with Uncle Sam, to read ballistic reports and Dr. reports on GSW's. Based on those reviews, I believe the .22lr is best used in a 40 gr. solid. It penetrates the best and causes the most damage by penetrating. The GSW reports from the Dr's. stated many times that the .22lr "punches above its weight class!" Apparently it enters the body and does strange things, like make right or left hand turns, bounces off of bones into vital organs etc, and can keep traveling a remarkable distance in the human body. While it doe not have the immediate 'shock" value of a heavy caliber, it will undoubtedly kill you if not treated immediately, and even then there is no guarantee of success. Also, the .22lr is a dirty round, which means infection is almost guaranteed. In addition, every Dr. said multiple hits are a BIG problem. Lots of leaking holes to deal with and attend too at the same time! So, if you can dump several rounds or a .22 magazine into an adversary, you will definitely ruin their day (IMHO)
 

Biggfoot44

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The one possible exception is Stingers * from a full size .22lr pistol * . But that's a mixed blessing with substantially reduced penetration ( and I'm not obsessed over penetration ) .

So yes , 40gr RN is generally the least worst choice . You tube gel testing does show the new Punch to give +/- 10% more penetration over typical 40gr RN . Is that enough difference to make a difference ? i.e. Enough difference to raise .22lr to a different class ? Shrug , but probably not .
 

Snake Pleskin

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The one possible exception is Stingers * from a full size .22lr pistol * . But that's a mixed blessing with substantially reduced penetration ( and I'm not obsessed over penetration ) .

So yes , 40gr RN is generally the least worst choice . You tube gel testing does show the new Punch to give +/- 10% more penetration over typical 40gr RN . Is that enough difference to make a difference ? i.e. Enough difference to raise .22lr to a different class ? Shrug , but probably not .
Back in the day Mossad agents took out the hijacker with a berretta 70s, the .22lr did the job. Old "paulie" who worked for "Skinny Joe" Tedesco used it to handle 'business" (LOL) DOD used them when diplomacy failed, and Uncle Sam came knocking.
 

Joe Chartreuse

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All interesting replies. From my own experience, I have seen expansion on targets at 30 yards. On the other hand, I do not know if this translates to the same on a human body.
 

Mobuck

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Putting it bluntly, 22 bullets don't create much of a wound channel. I knew a guy who intentionally shot himself in the chest with a 22 rifle when he was 17-18 years old. His Dad drove him to the hospital where an X-ray showed no bullet fragments lodged in his chest. Doctor patched the entry/exit wounds with band-aids and sent him home. That was on a Friday. On Monday, he was back in school but had a 10 day excuse from PE.
I've also seen the results of 22 bullets in ballistic gelatin and grocery store meat(not the same as warm/blood filled tissue BTW). UNLESS that little bullet hits one of the arteries in the lungs or heart(maybe not even then), the immediate physical response isn't going to be a fight stopper. The mental response of "OH CRAP, I've been shot" may be a bigger fight stopper.
I carry a 22 now and then BUT it's under the premise that ANY gun is better than NO gun.
 

noahmercy

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If I were to have absolutely no choice but to carry a 22 for defense, I'd choose the ammo based on two criteria...reliability and performance.

Reliability: Rimfire ammo is notorious for having priming material unevenly distributed around the rim, especially with bulk stuff, and that can lead to clicks instead of bangs. The wax lube used on many styles also tend to pick up lint, dust, and other contaminates which can cause issues. And finally, most rimfire is not very water- or moisture- proof. I would look for a round with a plated bullet or a dry lube in a box which separates the cartridges from one another so they don't get banged around, and which has the minimum bullet/case play (indicating a robust crimp).

Performance: Fact is, the 22 has the highest incidence of "failure to stop" of any cartridge currently in use, regardless of velocity or bullet style, so choosing a round that operates 100% of the time, hits to the sights, and uses a bullet of sufficient weight or design to reach vitals is most important. Flat nosed bullets do more damage than round nose, and most guns with fixed sights shoot to POA with 38-40 grain bullets, so I usually recommend the CCI SGB or Velocitor (despite being an HP, it has a flatter nose profile than many). Apparently Federal agrees with me about flat-nosed slugs, and developed the Punch, but decided to go with a non-standard case length and lightweight bullet which keeps it from being one of my top choices.

I would not bother to alternate, as even 22 HPs which expand are not going to "shock and stop" bad guys. Watch enough bodycam video and it becomes apparent that even well-performing 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP don't do that very often with anything less than perfect placement.
 

Snake Pleskin

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If I were to have absolutely no choice but to carry a 22 for defense, I'd choose the ammo based on two criteria...reliability and performance.

Reliability: Rimfire ammo is notorious for having priming material unevenly distributed around the rim, especially with bulk stuff, and that can lead to clicks instead of bangs. The wax lube used on many styles also tend to pick up lint, dust, and other contaminates which can cause issues. And finally, most rimfire is not very water- or moisture- proof. I would look for a round with a plated bullet or a dry lube in a box which separates the cartridges from one another so they don't get banged around, and which has the minimum bullet/case play (indicating a robust crimp).

Performance: Fact is, the 22 has the highest incidence of "failure to stop" of any cartridge currently in use, regardless of velocity or bullet style, so choosing a round that operates 100% of the time, hits to the sights, and uses a bullet of sufficient weight or design to reach vitals is most important. Flat nosed bullets do more damage than round nose, and most guns with fixed sights shoot to POA with 38-40 grain bullets, so I usually recommend the CCI SGB or Velocitor (despite being an HP, it has a flatter nose profile than many). Apparently Federal agrees with me about flat-nosed slugs, and developed the Punch, but decided to go with a non-standard case length and lightweight bullet which keeps it from being one of my top choices.

I would not bother to alternate, as even 22 HPs which expand are not going to "shock and stop" bad guys. Watch enough bodycam video and it becomes apparent that even well-performing 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP don't do that very often with anything less than perfect placement.
The .22lr round is NOT a "stopper", but it is a "killer" used properly within its limits. That has been shown to be true for decades. They were used quite effectively overseas(Nam) by spec ops & govt types to resolve problems.
 

Biggfoot44

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The .22lr round is NOT a "stopper", but it is a "killer" used properly within its limits. That has been shown to be true for decades. They were used quite effectively overseas(Nam) by spec ops & govt types to resolve problems.


A. Killer , when you Need a stopper is of little consolation .

B. Deliberate assinations on often unsuspecting victims has little correlation to stopping an attacker .
 

Snake Pleskin

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A. Killer , when you Need a stopper is of little consolation .

B. Deliberate assinations on often unsuspecting victims has little correlation to stopping an attacker .
correct. But in 51 yrs of carrying a firearm, both as a civilian and in govt., I have never needed a "stopper", but "have" needed good shot placement to include a "double tap" to the Terminal T. Years ago the Brits developed the Double Tap , Terminal T training, frequently called the Mozambique drill, based on their experience there. It is the original FTS drill and works well. It was taught to many govt agencies ,especially those that worked with the Brits like DOD did. I would not recommend a .22lr as a primary protection firearm, but for some people they have little or no choice due to age, fragility, lack of body strength etc. SO, if I was stuck using the .22lr I would certain want my skills as well developed as possible and the Mozambique would be one of those skills utilized with the .22.( IMHO) As previously mentioned , the Mossad and Israeli Air Marshalls purposely used Beretta .22's to avoid over penetration an successfully stopped hijackers with the ,22lr.
 
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Joe Chartreuse

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The .22lr round is NOT a "stopper", but it is a "killer" used properly within its limits. That has been shown to be true for decades. They were used quite effectively overseas(Nam) by spec ops & govt types to resolve problems.
Snake, we share similar experiences. I have not only been working on this information, but have seen .22 s in action first hand. They kill, however they also stop.. All about where one puts them. Also, keep in mind how many fit in a standard mag. If one didn't stop, there are plenty more.
 
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