Accuracy question

Help Support Ruger Forum:

ArmedinAZ

Buckeye
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
1,639
Location
over the hill from Preskitt
There's much talk about gun X being more accurate than gun Y. What causes more or less accuracy? My totally unfounded guess is that the barrel doesn't come back to the same place in relation to the slide after each shot, caused by ?? Are there other things involved as well? I'm not talking about a 6" barrel gun shooting better groups than a 3" barrel gun.

Tell me what you know, not what you guess. :lol:
 

Sonnytoo

Blackhawk
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
631
Location
florida
Many contributing factors. Basically, the slide/barrel configuration must return to the exact position after each shot. In some semiautos, it is a matter of tight barrel bushing and barrel links to control the exact position of the front and rear of the barrel.
Of course, there are special target barrels that are specially produced by folks like Barsto or Baer, and these may well cost two or three times the cost of a factory barrel.
Special target autos usually are hand-made with very close tolerances between the barrel and slide. However, tolerances which are held too tightly can lead to failure-to-fire due to increased friction (binding, galling).
Commericial autos for wide distribution generally don't have as much hand-work involved in their production, and tolerances are larger so that the worker can draw from a bin of parts. Such larger tolerances mean that the barrel can "flop" around from one gunshot to the next and not return to the same position...or that the end of the barrel is not at the same position. This leads to something called "combat accuracy" which implies that the firearm is accurate enough for its intended purpose of relatively short-range self-defense. This usually means that the firearm will shoot a 5-shot group of a 3 to 4 inch grouping fired at 25 yards under controlled conditons, i.e. bench-rested.
Target accuracy is held to much tighter restrictions, and the handgun may well group within one to one-and-one-half inches @ a 50 yard distance. Of course, this generally means custom work and much higher prices: meaning a cost of perhaps $2500 for the custom vs. $500 for the production handgun.
Any mechanical parts that are part of the particular trigger/hammer/striker firing system can be related to accuracy and many times these internal parts, that rub against each other, are buffed or polished by the owner in an attempt to get a smoother letoff in the firing cycle.
Many folks will tell you that a lighter trigger is important for accurate shooting. It is true that most target handguns will have lighter letoff weights, but some folks argue this point.
Certainly, you need high quality ammunition to shoot decent groups. That means consecutive shots that are very close in velocity rather than a wide spread in feet per second.
And, of course, the person behind the gun, his/her trigger control, concentration, training, visual acuity, reflexes, all come into play.
Most of what I've said is speculation, and subject to interpretation by the reader.
This is off the cuff and other folks will have other ideas.
Sonnytoo
 

ArmedinAZ

Buckeye
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
1,639
Location
over the hill from Preskitt
Bud33":36sxw19i said:
It all boils down to the NUT behind the slide. All the fine tunning and tight parts etc mean nothing if you cant hold a stead sight picture.

I'm sorry for not being clear enough. I was not referring to any individual's ability to shoot. I'm referring to the apparent fact that using an appropriate fixture of some kind and shooting at 25 yards, brand X model A pistol shoots tighter groups than brand Y model B.

I understand that a person might shoot better with a particular weapon for whatever reason. I've shoot tighter groups with a P93 than any other pistol I've owned but the P93 is not generally known to be a highly accurate pistol.

To be precise, why is a Glock more accurate than S&W M&P, or why is an SR9 more accurate than an XD9, etc etc.? (just examples) They're all striker fired plastic double stack pistols.
 

ConradM

Blackhawk
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
512
In my limited experience with my 2 pistols, (SR9 and XDm) it comes down to the trigger. The XDm has a Match grade barrel, but I don't even know what that means.

The XDm trigger is so light and smooth compared to the SR9.
 

Iron Mike Golf

Blackhawk
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
945
A lot of the work done to competition pistols makes it easier to shoot tighter groups: trigger work, grips, sights, etc.

Now, with barrels, another area that may be better is the muzzle crown.
 

ArmedinAZ

Buckeye
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
1,639
Location
over the hill from Preskitt
ConradM":1vouv62b said:
In my limited experience with my 2 pistols, (SR9 and XDm) it comes down to the trigger. The XDm has a Match grade barrel, but I don't even know what that means.

The XDm trigger is so light and smooth compared to the SR9.

Conrad, I agree and understand about the trigger. Would the trigger pull make a difference when the gun is bolted down and the fixture is pulling it?
 

revhigh

Hawkeye
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
5,590
Location
PA
Mechanical accuracy is a combination of many things ... tight tolerances without being too tight to cause binding .... tight barrel lockup so that the gun shoots the exact same way each time ... in the case of a 1911, the tolerances betweent the barrel and bushing, and bushing to slide matter greatly. OF course the trigger means a whole lot, but that is more related to how a shooter relates to the gun, rather than the mechanical accuracy of the weapon itself.

Certainly precision in every aspect of the machining process matters greatly, and of course that precision machining has to do with the original design drawings. If there is a flaw in the original design, no amount of precision machining can correct it ... in that case, precision machining only perpetuates the flaws.

I've found that MANY people don't understand that one gun can be considerably more accurate than another one, and those people go on and on that they can shoot gun A better than gun B, so how could gun B be more inherently more accurate ? Of course this just demonstrates the person's lack of understanding of firearm accuracy. Many don't understand how it's possible for a person to be able to 'outshoot' a given gun, either.

I had a discussion with a guy at the range who is a QC specialist for a company that makes pumps and pumping equipment for nuclear submarines. He maintained that the only accuracy difference between 2 rifles .... ANY TWO RIFLES ... was the amount of 'practice' that a shooter had with the rifle in question. I said ... OK Donny .... so you're telling me that ALL Rifles .... every modern rifle in existence .... if bolted into a mechanical rest so that no variables could change, would ALL shoot the same size group at 100 yards if given the same ammo and no variables could change ??? Mindblowingly .... he said YES. THis guy is inspecting pumps for our NUCLEAR SUBMARINES !! I tried to explain the concept of inherent accuracy to him, and he truly could not understand it. In his view, the only variables involved in target shooting is the shooter himself.

You can not evaluate the accuracy of a weapon by shooting a mag full at the range with your buddy;s gun. That's another thing you hear all the time ... many, many posters post things like ... 'If a Glock, or Sig, or CZ, or FN, or HK, or S&W, or XD, or whatever, is so accurate, how come when I shot my buddy's 'whatever' at the range, I couldn't shoot it as well as my Ruger 'whatever' ???? Well, I can think of about 10 things that could cause that, but I won't go into them now.

Original design, and the machining and tolerances behind it are needed for a gun to be accurate. All the parts need to work in harmony. This of course means that the parts can not batter themselves against other parts, as is the case in the SR9. I don't know what the reason for the 'peening' is in the SR9, but common sense will tell you that SOMETHING is wrong, either in the design, or the execution of the design, which is the machining and tolerances in the machining.

REV
 

ConradM

Blackhawk
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
512
ArmedinAZ":2sxao2kg said:
ConradM":2sxao2kg said:
In my limited experience with my 2 pistols, (SR9 and XDm) it comes down to the trigger. The XDm has a Match grade barrel, but I don't even know what that means.

The XDm trigger is so light and smooth compared to the SR9.

Conrad, I agree and understand about the trigger. Would the trigger pull make a difference when the gun is bolted down and the fixture is pulling it?

Nope.
 

revhigh

Hawkeye
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
5,590
Location
PA
ConradM":3oiod36a said:
The XDm has a Match grade barrel, but I don't even know what that means.

LOL Conrad !!! I don't think Springfield knows what it means either. In my experience, the standard XD's are more accurate than the XD/M's. Several friends bought, and sold within a few weeks, their XD/M's. The bad thing about it, was that BOTH guys TRADED their standard XD's in on the new XD/M because it was supposed to be a 'Match Grade' barrel. They couldn't even get their old guns back ....

REV
 

kscott

Single-Sixer
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
473
Location
Southwestern Indiana
I think rev and sonnytoo pretty much nailed it. Although the trigger definitely affects how SOMEONE shoots, I don't think it would make any difference when "bolted down." I also agree that the tolerances will
make most of the differences.
 

Cheesewhiz

Hunter
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
2,114
Location
Chicago, IL
kscott":1viciwh1 said:
I think rev and sonnytoo pretty much nailed it. Although the trigger definitely affects how SOMEONE shoots, I don't think it would make any difference when "bolted down." I also agree that the tolerances will
make most of the differences.

I agree that sonnytoo and Rev basically hit it with slide to barrel lock up being probably the most important overall.

Most match barrels have a more precise transition from the chamber to the barrel and the bullet seat is at a optimum.

Another thing is the round needs to load fairly easily and not hit point first as this can push the bullet further in the case and that does effect accuracy.

...but one real point is headspace and how it relates to barrel to slide lock up, a lot of the newer designs don't use lug to lug (barrel/slide) as in a 1911 or a Sig or CZ. The newer designs count somewhat on the lower lug to slide stop, also the barrel hood in to the slide ejection opening (port) but probably most important, the rim of the round actually forces all these things together and causes the lock up the be pretty tight.

I have felt for a long time that the fluctuation in rim thickness with different makers ammo could be an issue with accuracy and more so with striker fired guns.
 

NixieTube

Blackhawk
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
988
Location
Massachusetts
Here is what affects accuracy:

1) Every single part of the gun involved in firing the bullet.
2) Every single part of the gun involved in cycling after firing the bullet.
3) Every single part of the bullet.
4) Every single part of what is inside the propellant that pushes the bullet.
5) Every single aspect of the sighting "system" used to direct the bullet.
6) Every single part of the person pulling the trigger who fires the bullet.
7) Every single part of the environment in which the bullet is fired.
8) Every single aspect of what the bullet is intended to do once it is fired.
9) Every single thing that happens to the bullet on the way to the target.
10) Almost every single aspect of the target.
11) Money
12) El Chupacabra
13) Last but certainly NOT least...."PRACTICE and TECHNIQUE."

And a few others...

In other words, there are a lot of variables. :) Some of them are more important than others, obviously, but one of the fun things about the sport is that it's awfully tough to get all of them (and more that I haven't listed) right on any given shot, through any given gun, with any given person, using any given ammunition, at any given time.

Sonnytoo describes a lot of them in his post, and there are lots of others. That's why this is so much fun! :)
 

revhigh

Hawkeye
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
5,590
Location
PA
NixieTube":24vmm1fn said:
Here is what affects accuracy:

1) Every single part of the gun involved in firing the bullet. Agreed.
2) Every single part of the gun involved in cycling after firing the bullet. Not so much.
3) Every single part of the bullet. Not so much ... same bullet each time.
4) Every single part of what is inside the propellant that pushes the bullet. Not so much ... same propellant each time.
5) Every single aspect of the sighting "system" used to direct the bullet. No ... external to mechanics of firing the bullet
6) Every single part of the person pulling the trigger who fires the bullet. No ... external to mechanics of firing the bullet
7) Every single part of the environment in which the bullet is fired. No ... external to mechanics of firing the bullet
8) Every single aspect of what the bullet is intended to do once it is fired. No ... external to mechanics of firing the bullet
9) Every single thing that happens to the bullet on the way to the target. Maybe, if conditions varied during the test ... still external to mechanics of firing the bullet
10) Almost every single aspect of the target. No ... external to mechanics of firing the bullet
11) Money huh ?
12) El Chupacabra huh?
13) Last but certainly NOT least...."PRACTICE and TECHNIQUE." No ... external to mechanics of firing the bullet
And a few others...

Many of your listed items describe variables that are not involved in the mechanics of firing the bullet ... good list though :D, but we're talking about a GUN'S accuracy, not a SHOOTER's accuracy, or the way a shooter or the environment acts on a round being fired.

REV
 

NixieTube

Blackhawk
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
988
Location
Massachusetts
Having said that, because the last answer was a little glib, I think one of the most important things is how well-made the gun was originally, and how good the ammunition is for its intended purpose, and how much the person using them practices, in the environment they intend to use it for its best results.

I spent a long time on a championship-winning rifle team in high school and I shot my best targets with a rifle that wasn't "the ultimate" rifle we had available. Those were the ANSCHÜTZ rifles, but I didn't use one: it was *too* adjustable. Beautifully made in every respect, extremely expensive, but I didn't like them after trying them.

My best shooting happened with gear I was *comfortable* with, and I was very possessive! "Don't TOUCH my mitt, man!" ;)
 

NixieTube

Blackhawk
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
988
Location
Massachusetts
And don't get me wrong, I can be as hard-core a rationalist about the manufacturing parameters of guns in the abstract as anyone. Certainly a gun made from the finest components machined so that it functions within its design tolerances and *reliably manufactured* that way is better than a sloppily-made gun in the hands of most people. Custom manufacturers and the custom shops of large companies charge lots of money to manufacture particular aspects of a design to perfection, so that they are as good as they can theoretically be.

Ammunition manufacturers charge more for match bullets because they are made more carefully, so that they approach more closely the theoretical performance of the bullet design.

In the real world, no two parts of a gun or the bullet they fire are ever made precisely the same, even with the most careful attention to detail. They are only identical within a window of tolerance, and some designs are more forgiving than others of mistakes.

I'm sure Ed Brown and Les Baer know how to machine their pistols so that they are as close to theoretically perfect as possible given the design parameters.

But I will guarantee you that *no* two Ed Brown or Les Baer guns will ever shoot exactly the same grouping, no matter how precisely they're made and how well they're anchored when they're fired. They will, however, shoot within an accuracy range that places them a cut above "ordinary" pistols -- all other things being equal. They're closer to the theoretical perfection of the design.

There is no such thing as a perfectly made object in this world that is constructed by human hands or through human contrivance, or even by machine. We get incrementally closer, but they're never the same.
 

NixieTube

Blackhawk
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
988
Location
Massachusetts
You know, I have thought about this a lot recently in regard to the SR9, and particularly after looking at Ruger's corporate web site for their metal casting operation.

Here are their linear tolerances:

http://www.ruger.com/casting/T-Tolerances.html

There are no two guns that Ruger makes that are the same, ever. And the same is true of everyone else who manufactures anything in a quantity greater than 1.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for people who do everything they can to get closer to truly "identical" parts. For a long time in human history, even the idea of interchangeable parts was something that couldn't be attempted, because nobody knew how to measure things accurately, much less manufacture them consistently. Everything was more or less "bespoke" for a long time.
 

3leggeddog

Single-Sixer
Joined
Aug 3, 2009
Messages
267
Location
Michigan
If you was searching for the best made gun [9mm] with a 4" barrel, that will give you a best chance to shoot good groups for under $600.00. You need to remove the human factor ,I realize some of us shoot better than other. My Ruger Mark II competition Target will shoot 1" groups at 50 feet from a rest all day long. The barrel + the sight never move during the firing cycle! Where as my SR9 from a rest will may be do,a 4" to 5" from the a rest.
If I'm correct ,the SR9 barrel must not be locking back up/in the same exact place every time. A few thousands = a few more inches spread down range.
Does this unknown to me gun exist?? Being I don't have the proper back ground for this , I'm sure others here do.
 

Cheesewhiz

Hunter
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
2,114
Location
Chicago, IL
A CZ 75B can be had for far less than $600. It has a 4.72" barrel but the gun feels a bit smaller. They are accurate and have a very nice feel. My SR9 must be a tad more accurate than yours, I get pretty good groups from it, but all my CZ's shoot better.
 

ArmedinAZ

Buckeye
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
1,639
Location
over the hill from Preskitt
Some great info here, thanks for the replies. :!:

3legdog asks a question I'm interested as well. What semi auto 9mms are acknowledged as the most accurate shooters for $600? 2 categories, new and used.
 

Latest posts

Top