ACCURACY, POWER OR VELOCITY?

[sixshot]

When shooting a handgun which is most important to you, hitting the target, having enough power to knock down a rhino or shooting those 400 gr slugs so fast there's no holdover out to 200 yds!
Time after time, on this forum & many others you see handgunners, usually first time hunters, etc. who want massive bullets at velocities that are on the verge of blowing the topstrap off their guns. The theory is, they are going to be in bear country & want the biggest, baddest handgun to ever come down the pike.
This thing with monster bullets & guns is kind of new, in the old days most admitted the 44 magnum was more than they could handle, now if its not a 5 shot 45 colt, a 475 or a 500 L it wouldn't knock a hole in a wet kleenex.
Whatever happened to hitting the target, not once out of 5-6 but everytime. Now I will admit there are shooters out there who can shoot these monster guns & loads very well, I've seen some of them in person, but the sad truth is, most of us are much better served with a handgun that we not only shoot accurately but do it with speed, thats kind of important if you are in bear country! :wink:
Most all of us have read the recent shooting of a monster brown bear in Alaska using a 454 & big bullets, some have questioned what actually took place, the fact is, the guy survived & he also admitted he was very lucky to hit the bear, it was on him so fast his account of what happened was brought into question, mostly by folks who've never even seen a bear, or had one right in their lap in anywhere from 1-5 seconds. Its a sight to behold to actually see how fast a bear can move, a good quarter horse has no chance for 100 yds or so, not even close!
So, my question is, what is most important to you, hitting the target, big bullets or lots of velocity? Almost everyone will say you have to hit the target, next they will say you need good bullets & last they will say, give me good velocity..... and thats exactyly how it should be, but reading some of the posts here and on other forums as mentioned, its very clear that a huge caliber gun with massive amounts of recoil gets the nod almost everytime, people have the impression that bears are bullet proof & you have to be armed with a small cannon to even slow one down. You can tell from their replies that accuracy is way down the list, when in truth a big, tough bullet at modest velocity in the RIGHT place will win out over the handguns with massive amounts of brutal recoil every single time.
If you are a fair shot at the range, in good light conditions, perfectly calm & shooting at a tame piece of paper at a know distance how will it affect your shooting to try & hit something that can cover 40 yds in 2.5 seconds with teeth clear to its tail & a mug like Rosie O'Donnell's, might just raise the pucker factor a bit & effect your shooting.
Hitting the target, whether paper or flesh is always going to be #1, good bullets comes next & shooting a load that allows you to control the recoil is #3, changing the order can & will get many people in trouble.......& give the bear indigestion.

Dick

 

[Hugh]

Presence of mind, hit the target, stop the target. The man in Alaska had what it took to do all three.

 

[slippingaway]

Not to the point of your post, but for anyone who doubts how fast a bear can charge, watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw

 

[contender]

Well, I'm sure you know where I stand. I prefer to have a very accurate load in a common bullet weight,, loaded within specs after much testing to see which load is the most accurate with consistency.
I recall my first Redhawk that shot 1/2" groups from the rest at 50 yds with the mildest load listed for IMR 4227. That was the load I used exclusivily. Never felt "undergunned" anywhere I went.
I've also never felt the need for "wrist breakers" that some folks shoot. In fact,,, my Super Redhawk 480 was bought used and as part of the deal when I helped my friend find one. He bought it with my help, with the understanding if he ever sold it,, I'd get first option. Well, it was priced VERY reasonable and I owned it. While it's a handful,, it's not unmanageable,,, and I've found a mid-range load I'm pleased with. However,,, I don't see myself hunting with it as I'm more comfortable with any one of my several 45 Colts,, or 44 mags,,, or even my 44 spls. And that's for big animals. For deer I'd even feel ok using my 357's at times.
So,, for me accuracy is paramount.

 

[JesterGrin_1]

I have to say I LIKE the .44 Magnum and I know others may not agree but I feel it is the largest caliber hand gun that the general public can use.

But I will go on a few things. One is Practice Practice Practice with whatever arm you decide to carry in an area that could be dangerous to ones health. Practice makes the use of such an arm more of a reaction than something you have to think about and time is your enemy in these situations.

Like I said I like the .44 Mag and one needs to put in some time and work to find out what there particular arm likes to shoot not only in what weight bullet it likes but also powder and primer and crimp and AOL of said cartridge all makes a difference. And finding this out does one big thing. PRACTICE. You get to know what your arm will do and how it feels.

So really you have to tailor the round to the gun to get its best accuracy and practice with said gun so that what you do is more instinct than have to think about it.
But that is just one Gun Nuts thoughts lol.

I also feel there is very few shooters out there that shoot the large caliber hand guns that know what they are doing and have a reason to own such an arm. While the majority just want the biggest and baddest hand gun around. And if those people that do not know and do not practice to become proficient with said arm and think they can go into a dangerous area and also think nothing can touch them with there cannon well that is just natural selection lol. And the Bear needs to eat too lol.

 

[coloradofarmboy]

It would seem to me that accuracy is paramount to everything. I have known guys that have a HUGE gun, but can't hit the broadside of the barn. They don't know the limitations of their gun or themselves. So if a bear is charging and all you do is make a bunch of noise, it really is pointless if the bear isn't startled.

I have only been around two or so black bear shoots, but it seemed to me that one that power seemed to be more of an issue than velocity because the bear did not go down easy. This is anecdotal though and was only an impression. The higher velocity stuff just didn't seem to do the job as well as the slower, but more powerful stuff.

 

[clintsfolly]

if you do,nt hit your target the rest is just a waste of ammo!!Clint

 

[AzRebel]

Back in the late 1990's, I had a Ruger SBH in .44 mag. I wasn't used to that kind of recoil, and had a hard time shooting it accurately with full powered loads. Due to some crazy things happening in my life, I finally traded it off.

Fast forward about 5 years, and I sorta got back into the larger bore handguns. Instead of the .44 mag, I decided to try the .45 Colt in a full sized SA revolver. For me, it's far easier to shoot accurately than the SBH was, and I'm shooting a little heavier bullet.

For me, it's accuracy first, bullet weight/construction second, and velocity third. That said, there's nothing wrong with having all three, as long as you can shoot it well. If I couldn't, I'd have either lightened the load, or I'd have sold off the handguns by now. I've no use for a gun I can't hit with.

Due to my experience with the full powered .44 mag, I have no desire or need to go larger than the .45 Colt shooting 300 grain bullets at around 1200-1250 fps. I can handle that just fine, but more gets to be a bit too much for me to shoot accurately.

As far as bears, they're probably the least of my concerns...except when I'm hunting them. I usually use a mouth blown predator call to call them in, and I've seen one or two that came in fast and hard. I've never hunted the big browns, and probably won't, but I was with a buddy that shot one when it ran at him west of Chicken, Alaska (about 80 miles north of Tok). All I can say is that the years we spent calling and shooting coyotes running at us was good practice.

Daryl

 

[Sonnytoo]

Presence of mind, hit the target, stop the target. The man in Alaska had what it took to do all three.

I like his "presence of mind" comment as the primary. You need to "take your time, quickly," without shakin' all over the place. Forgot whose quote that was. Maintaining calm, at least momentarily, will help you hit the target. You can shake later if you survive. I propose that you practice by occasional shooting in any kind of competition that will get your heart rate up, so that you learn how to handle the adrenaline rush.
Power means bullet weight to me. A friend shot a young bull elk last year at 40 yards with his Blackhawk .45 Colt; 280 grain hard-cast SWC that went through both shoulders, several ribs, destroyed the heart and exited on the far side. The VELOCITY of his round was 1050 fps. You can look up the results of Linebaugh seminars penetration tests sometime to convince yourself.
So my rules for hunting larger game are 1) a practiced calm so that you hit the target, 2) hard-cast Keith bullet of about 300 grains, and 3) velocity of 1100-1250 fps so the lesser recoil will allow for followup shot(s).

 

[jpickar]

That video tells it like it is. It happens so fast you have to be able to react almost without thinking.

We live in the woods at the end of the road. I raised my two sons with guns and how to shoot them. To make a long story short, my youngest son, who was 15 at the time came around the corner of a shed on our place and was facing a charging 450lb grizzly bear at 20 yards he pulled up the shotgun loaded with slugs and shot twice. The first slug went in and broke the collar bone, split in two pieces and destroyed the lungs.


The bear turned and went up the mountain 100 yards as was still alive a full 5 minutes later. We went back up the mountain the next morning and found the dead bear.

Bottom line..... Nothing will stop a bear if they don't want to be stopped.

That said we all carry Smtih 629's and pepper spray. We practice with our 629's. Why a 629? because it is easier to carry than a Redhawk. A 44 mag is not going to stop a bear. But it is better than nothing. But being able to put the bullet in the right spot is very important. And pray you never have to use it.
Being familiar with your gun, being able to react to the situation, and LUCK will save your life. You can only prepare by being familiar with your gun. The second one, recacting, you can only partially prepare for. You better pray for LUCK everytime.

John

 

[Pal Val]

A heavy bullet that misses does nothing. A fast bullet that misses does nothing. A bullet that hits does its job. I go for accuracy, keeping velocity and weight within reason.

 

[STW]

It doesn't have to be a big bear to move fast. Earlier this summer we watched a black bear trying to run down an antelope. It was downhill and, granted, the antelope could have been playing with the bear, but from our vantage point the bear didn't loose much ground in the chase. He gave up after after something over 100 yards but, at least for a while, he thought he had a chance.

 

[CraigC]

Accuracy! Shooting accurately means a lot of practice and I prefer to do it without beating myself up. So a 240gr SWC or 250gr Keith at 1100fps is good for that and happens to be plenty enough to do anything I need it to. If I need more, I'll go up in bullet weight and/or caliber, not velocity.

"Take your time, quickly" is an excellent quote that all shooters should memorize and one credited to Wyatt Earp. A cool head is the most important tool you'll ever acquire.

 

[Rclark]

.44mag...I know others may not agree but I feel it is the largest caliber hand gun that the general public can use.

No offence intended.... but this kind of thinking gets guns on the banned list .... The law abiding public should be able to own and shoot any gun they want. If I want to shoot a big .50 for the heck of it... I should be able to . A big .750 .... why not? Not because someone 'feels' I shouldn't because it's to much gun for the 'general' public and therefore I am not allowed to shoot it..... That's wrong .... Same with SKSs, AKs, M-16s, mini-14s, etc.... Off soap box.

Now, I would not be hauling a big impractical .50 out in the woods (it's just a curiosity thing). I want something that will do the job and something that I am comfortable shooting accurately. Currently that is the o' Vaquero in .45 Colt. As above, the velocities need only to be up to 1100 fps at the most. No need for anything more .. unless your 'threats' are long range ones.... Practice is the key. Up the speed a bit to getting on target and popping off a round. Some point I'd like to start trying to shoot moving targets too. While I am 'dreaming' it sure would be nice to be able to hit a golf ball sized target thrown in the air..... ak Ed McGivern. . Practice.... If only one had the time and money.....

 

[sixshot]

rclark, don't think he was saying the largest caliber the public should be allowed to use, just that its about as much power as most, not all can handle well.
I agree we should all be able to carry & use what we want, I sure wouldn't want it anyother way & I like your choice of the 45 at 1100 fps, thats the sweet spot I look for in most all my big guns, when I'm at that point I just tweak the load a little, either up or down to find the best accuracy, nothing in my neck of the woods is going to stand up to very many 300 grainers, or even 260's at that velocity.
There's a guy in your neighborhood who can hit those golf balls, think he goes by the name of Bob, maybe last name is Munden. :lol:

Dick

 

[COR]

Accuracy with whatever is on your hip. I shoot a lot of cast so I don't try to push them hard (WW's and a little tin, air cooled). I have a 260gr LBT WFNGC that goes 1200 fps out of my 44. I can usually hit 4 or 5 of every 6 clay pigeons I lay on the 50yd berm after some warm up. I am confident with that load...I have shot heavier bullet out of that gun but I just didn't feel like an additional 40grains makes any diference at all and they aren't as pleasant or accurate for me.

One of the worst things for a new shooter/handloader is a chronograph, I know from my own experience with trying for high velocities. Accuracy will kill, all the rest is just a bunch of numbers on paper.

I cannot say how I would react to a large brown blur heading my way but I know that I have been in a precarious sutuation with an average size black bear sow and 2 cubs and all I had was a model 10 S&W with some round nose bullets at about 700fps. The cubs treed and mama bear was on a switchback below me shaking her head and smelling the wind, I was between them...Thank God the wind was in my favor because that average sized sow looked like a full size Alaskan brown bear and that .38 felt like a squirt gun. I just stood still with that .38 on her for what seemed like an eternity...my whole point is I didn't have enough gun for a pissed of mama bear but it would have killed her dead had I put it in her lungs or heart on a broadside shot. Well at least that's what I tell myself. She woofed and huffed and the cubs came down and headed towards her, thankfully she didn't come get them. I have hunted bears since I was 12 in Pa and I have seen the speed at which they can move when motivated. They also make for a much smaller target than most think. I would mush prefer a broadside target that is surprised by the shot. I don't want to be the one that has to keep his cool during a charge.

 

[c.r.]

I have to ask a question about the video, This also applies to the "well if you can't hit it, what good does it do?"
i'd like to be the Devil's advocate here. Just for the sake of expressing a different opinion.


Who honestly believes the tv guy intended to shoot the water in front of that bear? Not me. I think he intended to shoot the bear. So it doesn't matter if he was shooting 200 grains at 900 fps or 300 grains at 1300 fps. He missed.......but it did prevent the attack.

He probably did what I would have done and that's instinctly point the gun in the general direction, pull the trigger and hope to hit something.

If I can't assure myself that i'm going to remain calm and aim at the target.....or be trained to point shoot and hit the target........

then i'm basically just hoping i hit something.........If that's the case,then i'm going to want the biggest baddest load, in hopes that if i get lucky (which is already what i'm hoping to do is get lucky) and hit the little guy once, that I do enough damage to stop/prevent the attack.

Just a thought for discussion

~c.r.

 

[BIgMuddy]

Sixshot,

Of course we are going to say accuracy, which I am sure is the point. A good point it is too.

A few years ago I used a FA 454 with a 335gr WFNGC loaded pretty heavy for white tails. Now no one would ever think that much power was needed for deer, and it isn't. The reason I used that load, it was most accurate gun and load I owned and I had been shooting it a lot before deer season. I knew that gun and load would really "thread the needle". (I have since worked on lighter loads for that gun and use them now for deer hunting)

To your point also, start a thread about "which load for bear protection" and you will see recommendations for every hand held howitzer known to man. Most replies will be from folks like me that have only read about bear attacks and really don't have much chance of doing more.

I like reading some of Elmer's old writings and he did a lot of killin' with a 45 Colt and the old blackpowder loads. I think it was because he could hit what he shot at.

 

[scare]

Who honestly believes the tv guy intended to shoot the water in front of that bear? Not me. I think he intended to shoot the bear. So it doesn't matter if he was shooting 200 grains at 900 fps or 300 grains at 1300 fps. He missed.......but it did prevent the attack.

He probably did what I would have done and that's instinctly point the gun in the general direction, pull the trigger and hope to hit something.

+1

I thought the guy just reacted as I would have. He missed.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

A .44 Mag loaded w/ 240 gr LSWCs at around 1100 fps or so is about as big as I feel comfortable w/ in the accuracy department. And it's plenty of gun for anything I'm likely to try to hunt w/ a handgun.

I 'spose, in some people's minds, that makes me a wimp. So be it.

If I ran around in grizzly country w/ a sign on my back that said "LUNCH" I might practice to be confident w/ more load or more gun. Or both. (Or just say "Screw it" and grab a short barreled shotgun w/ some slugs?) Until that time comes, though, I don't feel undergunned, and haven't seen any of these animals that seem to have gotten so tough and hard to kill on the pages of the gun rags running around the woods in MY neighborhood!

Rick C